{"id":367695,"date":"2026-10-20T09:53:18","date_gmt":"2026-10-20T14:53:18","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.etrafficlane.com\/60dollarmiracle\/283-we-have-3-kids-and-live-paycheck-to-paycheck-are-we-screwed"},"modified":"2026-10-20T09:53:25","modified_gmt":"2026-10-20T14:53:25","slug":"283-we-have-3-kids-and-live-paycheck-to-paycheck-are-we-screwed","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.etrafficlane.com\/60dollarmiracle\/283-we-have-3-kids-and-live-paycheck-to-paycheck-are-we-screwed","title":{"rendered":"283. \u201cNow we have 3 youngsters and reside paycheck to paycheck. Are we screwed?\u201d"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><\/p>\n<div>\n<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"\u201cWe have 3 kids and live paycheck to paycheck. Are we screwed?\u201d\" width=\"640\" height=\"360\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/W8_fn9xx19A?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><span data-mce-type=\"bookmark\" style=\"display: inline-block; width: 0px; overflow: hidden; line-height: 0;\" class=\"mce_SELRES_start\">\ufeff<\/span><span data-mce-type=\"bookmark\" style=\"display: inline-block; width: 0px; overflow: hidden; line-height: 0;\" class=\"mce_SELRES_start\">\ufeff<\/span><span data-mce-type=\"bookmark\" style=\"display: inline-block; width: 0px; overflow: hidden; line-height: 0;\" class=\"mce_SELRES_start\">\ufeff<\/span><span data-mce-type=\"bookmark\" style=\"display: inline-block; width: 0px; overflow: hidden; line-height: 0;\" class=\"mce_SELRES_start\">\ufeff<\/span><span data-mce-type=\"bookmark\" style=\"display: inline-block; width: 0px; overflow: hidden; line-height: 0;\" class=\"mce_SELRES_start\">\ufeff<\/span><span data-mce-type=\"bookmark\" style=\"display: inline-block; width: 0px; overflow: hidden; line-height: 0;\" class=\"mce_SELRES_start\">\ufeff<\/span><span data-mce-type=\"bookmark\" style=\"display: inline-block; width: 0px; overflow: hidden; line-height: 0;\" class=\"mce_SELRES_start\">\ufeff<\/span><span data-mce-type=\"bookmark\" style=\"display: inline-block; width: 0px; overflow: hidden; line-height: 0;\" class=\"mce_SELRES_start\">\ufeff<\/span><span data-mce-type=\"bookmark\" style=\"display: inline-block; width: 0px; overflow: hidden; line-height: 0;\" class=\"mce_SELRES_start\">\ufeff<\/span><span data-mce-type=\"bookmark\" style=\"display: inline-block; width: 0px; overflow: hidden; line-height: 0;\" class=\"mce_SELRES_start\">\ufeff<\/span><span data-mce-type=\"bookmark\" style=\"display: inline-block; width: 0px; overflow: hidden; line-height: 0;\" class=\"mce_SELRES_start\">\ufeff<\/span><span data-mce-type=\"bookmark\" style=\"display: inline-block; width: 0px; overflow: hidden; line-height: 0;\" class=\"mce_SELRES_start\">\ufeff<\/span><span data-mce-type=\"bookmark\" style=\"display: inline-block; width: 0px; overflow: hidden; line-height: 0;\" class=\"mce_SELRES_start\">\ufeff<\/span><span data-mce-type=\"bookmark\" style=\"display: inline-block; width: 0px; overflow: hidden; line-height: 0;\" class=\"mce_SELRES_start\"\/><span data-mce-type=\"bookmark\" style=\"display: inline-block; width: 0px; overflow: hidden; line-height: 0;\" class=\"mce_SELRES_start\"><span data-mce-type=\"bookmark\" style=\"display: inline-block; width: 0px; overflow: hidden; line-height: 0;\" class=\"mce_SELRES_start\"\/><\/span><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" style=\"border-radius: 12px;\" src=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/embed\/episode\/0GeFWTsyQeu7zNTnbwTFS4\/video?utm_source=generator&amp;si=1aeec028b9b64b2d\" width=\"100%\" height=\"400\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\" data-testid=\"embed-iframe\" data-mce-fragment=\"1\"><span data-mce-type=\"bookmark\" style=\"display: inline-block; width: 0px; overflow: hidden; line-height: 0;\" class=\"mce_SELRES_start\"><span data-mce-type=\"bookmark\" style=\"display: inline-block; width: 0px; overflow: hidden; line-height: 0;\" class=\"mce_SELRES_start\">\ufeff<\/span>\ufeff<\/span><span data-mce-type=\"bookmark\" style=\"display: inline-block; width: 0px; overflow: hidden; line-height: 0;\" class=\"mce_SELRES_start\">\ufeff<\/span><span data-mce-type=\"bookmark\" style=\"display: inline-block; width: 0px; overflow: hidden; line-height: 0;\" class=\"mce_SELRES_start\">\ufeff<\/span><span data-mce-type=\"bookmark\" style=\"display: inline-block; width: 0px; overflow: hidden; line-height: 0;\" class=\"mce_SELRES_start\">\ufeff<\/span><span data-mce-type=\"bookmark\" style=\"display: inline-block; width: 0px; overflow: hidden; line-height: 0;\" class=\"mce_SELRES_start\">\ufeff<\/span><span data-mce-type=\"bookmark\" style=\"display: inline-block; width: 0px; overflow: hidden; line-height: 0;\" class=\"mce_SELRES_start\">\ufeff<\/span><span data-mce-type=\"bookmark\" style=\"display: inline-block; width: 0px; overflow: hidden; line-height: 0;\" class=\"mce_SELRES_start\"><span data-mce-type=\"bookmark\" style=\"display: inline-block; width: 0px; overflow: hidden; line-height: 0;\" class=\"mce_SELRES_start\"\/><\/span><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ramit digs into how years of impulse spending, money avoidance, and unequal financial responsibility have left a couple earning around $178,000 a year with $186,000 in debt and just $571 in savings.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ramit Sethi talks with Michelle and Jeff, both 45, who have three children and are approaching 20 years of marriage. They\u2019re earning more than ever, but still living paycheck to paycheck, with fixed costs consuming 87% of their take-home pay. Michelle feels responsible for making everything work, while Jeff admits that avoiding the numbers helps him avoid worrying about money and leaves her carrying the burden.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A closer look at their spending reveals a $76,000 car purchase, buy-now-pay-later spending, and more than $9,000 spent eating out reveal how their everyday decisions keep them stuck. The conversation reaches a turning point when he asks them to step away and decide whether they\u2019re both ready to commit to change. Together, they explore the childhood experiences behind their money habits and begin building shared rules, a spending plan, and a different financial future for their family.<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><br \/><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><br \/><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A special thanks to our new partners at Monarch for sponsoring this episode. Try Monarch for free today, and get 50% off your first year of Monarch\u2019s core tier at <\/span><a href=\"http:\/\/monarch.com\/ramit\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">https:\/\/monarch.com\/ramit<\/span><\/a><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">, promo code RAMIT. When you sign up with my link only, you\u2019ll get your Monarch account customized with my exact CSP categories so you can see exactly how you\u2019re stacking up to your plan each month. That\u2019s <\/span><a href=\"https:\/\/monarch.com\/ramit\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">https:\/\/monarch.com\/ramit<\/span><\/a><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">, promo code RAMIT.<\/span><\/p>\n<h4><strong>In this episode we uncover:<\/strong><\/h4>\n<ul>\n<li style=\"font-weight: 400;\" aria-level=\"1\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Why earning around $178,000 a year hasn\u2019t stopped Michelle and Jeff from living paycheck to paycheck<\/span><\/li>\n<li style=\"font-weight: 400;\" aria-level=\"1\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">How Michelle became responsible for managing the money and deciding which bills could wait<\/span><\/li>\n<li style=\"font-weight: 400;\" aria-level=\"1\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Why Jeff avoids the numbers, even while acknowledging the pressure it puts on Michelle<\/span><\/li>\n<li style=\"font-weight: 400;\" aria-level=\"1\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What $186,000 in debt, $571 in savings, and 87% fixed costs mean for their family<\/span><\/li>\n<li style=\"font-weight: 400;\" aria-level=\"1\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">How a $76,000 car purchase left them with a roughly $1,000 monthly payment<\/span><\/li>\n<li style=\"font-weight: 400;\" aria-level=\"1\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Why Ramit pauses the conversation and asks them to decide whether they\u2019re ready to change<\/span><\/li>\n<li style=\"font-weight: 400;\" aria-level=\"1\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">How childhood experiences with money still shape their spending, trust, and communication<\/span><\/li>\n<li style=\"font-weight: 400;\" aria-level=\"1\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">How they spent $9,275 eating out by August, including $2,747 in a single month<\/span><\/li>\n<li style=\"font-weight: 400;\" aria-level=\"1\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Why they agree to weekly money meetings, shared purchase rules, and a $75 monthly dining-out limit<\/span><\/li>\n<li style=\"font-weight: 400;\" aria-level=\"1\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What their follow-ups reveal about sharing responsibility and automating savings, retirement contributions, and extra debt payments<\/span><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h4><strong>Chapters:<\/strong><\/h4>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">(00:00:00) Introduction<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">(00:02:13) Earning more, still living paycheck to paycheck<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">(00:16:50) The purchase arguments putting pressure on Michelle<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">(00:32:04) Ramit asks them to step away and commit<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">(00:39:04) Facing their debt and high fixed costs<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">(00:49:08) The childhood money patterns they\u2019re repeating<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">(01:05:53) Where their money is really going<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">(01:13:34) Building shared money rules<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">(01:20:18) Reworking their budget, savings, and debt plan<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">(01:28:51) Follow-ups<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\ud83d\udca1 RAMIT\u2019S PODCAST NEWSLETTER<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><br \/><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u2022 I share new ways to think about money every Saturday. Get the emails here: https:\/\/iwt.com\/podcastnewsletter<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\ud83d\ude4c GET HELP FROM RAMIT SETHI<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><br \/><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u2022 Order my new book: Money for Couples: https:\/\/iwt.com\/moneyforcouples<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><br \/><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u2022 Take control of your money with the Conscious Spending Plan: https:\/\/iwt.com\/csp<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><br \/><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u2022 Optimize your credit cards with the 1st chapter of my book: https:\/\/iwt.com\/chapter1-pod<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><br \/><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u2022 Join my Rich Life: Road to $100K program: https:\/\/iwt.com\/100k<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><br \/><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u2022 Listen to my book \u2014 now on Audible: https:\/\/amzn.to\/48zko28<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\ud83e\udd33 CONNECT WITH RAMIT SETHI<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><br \/><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u2022 Instagram: https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/ramit\/<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><br \/><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u2022 X: https:\/\/twitter.com\/ramit<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u2705 SUBSCRIBE SO YOU DON\u2019T MISS ANY EPISODES<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><br \/><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> https:\/\/youtube.com\/user\/ramitsethi\/featured\/<\/span><\/p>\n<h4><strong>This episode is brought to you by:<\/strong><\/h4>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Facet | As of the date of this recording, Facet is waiving the enrollment fee for new annual members, and for my audience, Facet is offering $300 into your brokerage account if you invest and maintain $5,000 within your first 90 days. Head to <\/span><a href=\"https:\/\/facet.com\/ramit\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">facet.com\/ramit<\/span><\/a><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> to learn more about which membership option is best for you. Offer has been extended to 12\/31\/2026. #FacetAd\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Leesa | Go to <\/span><a href=\"https:\/\/leesa.com\/\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">https:\/\/leesa.com<\/span><\/a><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> for up to 30% off mattresses PLUS get an extra $50 off with promo code RAMIT, exclusive for my listeners<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Fabric by Gerber Life | Go to <\/span><a href=\"https:\/\/meetfabric.com\/RAMIT\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">https:\/\/meetfabric.com\/RAMIT<\/span><\/a><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> and apply today, risk-free<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Grow Therapy | Visit <\/span><a href=\"https:\/\/growtherapy.com\/ramit\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">https:\/\/growtherapy.com\/ramit<\/span><\/a><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> to find a therapist today<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Gelt | Gelt is taking on new clients now. Find out if you qualify at <\/span><a href=\"https:\/\/joingelt.com\/ramit\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">https:\/\/joingelt.com\/ramit<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Want to know exactly when you\u2019ll hit your first $100K? Rich Life: Road to $100K gives you a step-by-step system to automate your money, accelerate your timeline, and build your Rich Life along the way. Join today:<\/span><a href=\"http:\/\/iwt.com\/100K\"> <span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">iwt.com\/100K<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Apply to be coached for free on this podcast at <\/span><a href=\"https:\/\/iwt.com\/apply\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">https:\/\/iwt.com\/apply<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<h2><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Transcript:<\/span><\/b><\/h2>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:00:00] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We&#8217;re trying to figure out, okay, how are we going to get the kids to school? Or which bills we could<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">skip this month? Because I feel like sometimes we&#8217;re drowning.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:00:05] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Your fixed costs are 87%. You have very little savings. You have kids. If something happened, you all are<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">in big trouble. What solutions have you looked for engaged with?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:00:15] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We&#8217;ve done credit cards, personal loans. We have looked at bankruptcy.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:00:20] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">My philosophy is I give her the money and she does what she needs to do with it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:00:27] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Does it work?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:00:27] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">No. I don&#8217;t always feel like I know what I&#8217;m doing. I feel like I&#8217;m just piecing things together so we<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">can get to the next paycheck.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:00:32] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Why is it you?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:00:32] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Honestly, I don&#8217;t trust Jeff to handle the money.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:00:37] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In my own little world. I just don&#8217;t look at it. If I don&#8217;t ask about it, then I don&#8217;t have anxiety about<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:00:42] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You both came on money for couples. The only way that two of you will succeed is if the two of you are a<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">team. And right now, this is the opposite of teamwork. I&#8217;m about to speak with Michelle and Jeff. They&#8217;re<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">45 years old. They have three children and in their own words, they are earning more than ever before,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">but they are living paycheck to paycheck. Now, one of my favorite parts of my Netflix show was being able<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">to look at my guests actual spending before I ever met them, and now with monarch, I can. Monarch is a<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">private personal finance app that brings all of a household&#8217;s accounts, checking credit cards, loans, and<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">investments into one clean dashboard. And they&#8217;ve built my conscious spending plan directly into their<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">product exclusively for my audience, that means fixed costs, investment savings, guilt free spending are<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">automatically tracked as a percentage of take home pay. So if you want to see your conscious spending<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">plan in a living breathing dashboard that updates in real time, you can try it for free and get 50% off<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">your first year of Monarch Core with code remit. At Monarch Loans they have a Nissan Pathfinder for<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">$48,000. What? That&#8217;s a lot of money. Whoa. Okay, so their car payment, I think is $999. Klarna. Why are<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">you using Klarna? I have a lot of questions. So let&#8217;s get started with Michelle and Jeff. Michelle, in<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">your application, you said we can&#8217;t get ahead. We&#8217;re making the most money we&#8217;ve made in our adult lives,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and it feels like we&#8217;re still living paycheck to paycheck. Is that still accurate?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:02:26] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes. We were. Or I was in the process of trying to figure out how to make our bills that month. Um, we<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">had just started working with a debt management plan, and I was trying to figure out a budget. I was<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">trying to figure out how are we making as much as we are, but I still go to the grocery store on Sunday<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and worry about the tool. I&#8217;m trying to piece it together.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:02:53] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The worrisome on her face. So I got to move this money from this account to this account, or split it up<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">between these, these two accounts, so we can have money to feed the kids for the week. And, you know,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">it&#8217;s so saying the the worry, the anxiety and the stress on her face is, you know, it&#8217;s not something<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">that I want to see.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:03:18] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And Michelle, how long have you been the person in charge of managing the family finances?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:03:24] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Since the start. Um, we joke that our relationship started with me taking his money in monopoly.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:03:31] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh. Uh.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:03:31] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">My philosophy is I give her the money, and she does what she needs to do with it, and I take care of the<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">house.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:03:38] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And it just sort of continued that way, I think, because I had more experience at the time, I&#8217;d been<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">living on my own for a while, so I was more familiar with doing things like taxes and insurance and all<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">of that.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:03:57] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Got it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:03:57] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I hopped down, ask her how much I make a year because I don&#8217;t look at my pay stubs. She set up a 401 K<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">for me. God was asking me two weeks ago, because whatever we need to do to make her feel secure and<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">comfortable and financially ready for the future, I&#8217;m on board for it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:04:18] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay. How long you been married for?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:04:18] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It&#8217;ll be 20 years in January.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:04:18] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh, congratulations.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:04:25] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Thank you.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:04:25] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That&#8217;s cool. That&#8217;s a big one. 20 years. Uh, children.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:04:25] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We&#8217;ve got three of them. 16, 12, almost 13 and six.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:04:31] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay, excellent. Outstanding. Let&#8217;s say that we have a really good conversation today. Ten out of ten.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That&#8217;s what I always plan on. What does each of you walk out of here with Jeff? You first.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:04:43] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">For me, it&#8217;s more insight, more knowledge of what&#8217;s going on or ins and outs. since she&#8217;s been trying to<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">loot me in more in the last month or two. She&#8217;s getting, you know, interrupted. And she&#8217;s learning more<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">about, you know, taking charge of our money.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:05:02] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And but I&#8217;m surprised you say you want insight on this call. But I think you also mentioned you&#8217;re happy<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">to just hand her the money. So<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:05:08] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">100%. I think for me, ignorance and financial is bliss. Um. It&#8217;s selfish. Yes. And not fair for me to put<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">it on her shoulders. It&#8217;s not fair to let her carry all the financial burden and have to make all the<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">decisions and have to be the one saying, no, we can&#8217;t do this, and no, we can&#8217;t do that and have to make<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">her feel like the bad guy. It&#8217;s easy for me to focus on the kids in the house and everything else in<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">between, than it is to focus on appearances.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:05:39] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Do you really want insight today?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:05:39] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I mean, I do. I think we both need to be on the same page. Um, so I&#8217;m not just, you know, thinking, okay,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">she&#8217;s just being overreacted or it&#8217;s just, you know, you being paranoid.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:05:52] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So you want to take on some of that burden?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:05:52] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, I&#8217;m a project manager. I do risk assessment. But if I don&#8217;t know what&#8217;s going on, if I don&#8217;t have<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">all the information, I can&#8217;t plan.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:06:06] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Jeff. This is not about information. I want to set that right away. It&#8217;s not about information. It&#8217;s not<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">about tools.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:06:12] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">No, I agree, it&#8217;s just kind of was easier just to look the other way.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:06:16] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes. Great. That&#8217;s honest. So Michelle, what about you? Ten out of ten. What would you walk out of here<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">with.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:06:22] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Confident direction of what steps I need to take and what steps I can take to make sure that we are<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">eventually in the best financial shape possible. I want to make sure that my kids don&#8217;t end up in the<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">same situation I was when my parents died, which was not being able to pay for their cremation because<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">they didn&#8217;t have any savings or insurance or anything.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:06:49] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I&#8217;m sorry. This this is interesting because this doesn&#8217;t usually happen when I ask people like, what do<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">you want to get out of this? Most people say, I want a plan or something like that, which is fine. I love<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">hearing what you both want. But Michelle, are you telling me that what you want to get out of today is<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">making sure that your kids can pay for your cremation?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:07:10] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I mean, that&#8217;s kind of what, uh, prompted all of this.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:07:10] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We&#8217;ll get to that. But that&#8217;s what you want to walk out of. How much is a cremation cost?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:07:17] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Um, if you don&#8217;t get a specialized urn, it&#8217;s about $2,500.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:07:22] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But that&#8217;s the dream. $2,500 for your kids. I like hearing what you want. Sometimes I&#8217;m gonna push on it<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">a little. Because I don&#8217;t think your life is about being cremated for $2,500. That actually is really<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">depressing.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:07:33] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah,<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:07:33] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">we got a dream bigger than that, right?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:07:40] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Mhm.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:07:40] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The language in your application really stands out to me. We&#8217;re living paycheck to paycheck. We&#8217;ve been<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">doing it the same way for 20 years. Tell me more about that. What does that feel like to you?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:07:53] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It&#8217;s stressful. It&#8217;s scary. I don&#8217;t like not knowing what we would do or trying to figure out, okay, how<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">are we going to get the kids to school? Or how are we going to get my daughter up to her doctor&#8217;s<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">appointments? We don&#8217;t have anybody to help us with it, and we would be pretty out of luck.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:08:12] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Do you ever feel that way about like, savings or retirement?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:08:18] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If I think about it, yes.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:08:18] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But you don&#8217;t.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:08:18] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Not the way that I should, though.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:08:25] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And, Jeff, what is your role when it comes to money in this relationship?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:08:25] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As I said at the beginning, I give her my paycheck. And that&#8217;s that&#8217;s all I think about it is she&#8217;s been<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">taking my money out for 20 years now.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:08:37] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Does it work? Because this is a common. This is actually quite a common one for me.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:08:42] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It works for me. Not much for her because.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:08:42] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It&#8217;s an honest answer. You know.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:08:49] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hey, there you go. My lights are still on, you know? But there&#8217;s gas in the car, and we finally<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">established ground rules. If I&#8217;m not allowed to spend anything over $20 without her permission.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:09:00] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:09:00] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Which I agreed to because I&#8217;m an impulse buyer.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:09:00] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But it works for you. Okay. And, Michelle, does it work for you?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:09:07] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">No. It can be overwhelming. And I don&#8217;t always feel like I know what I&#8217;m doing. I feel like I&#8217;m just<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">piecing things together so we can get to the next paycheck. To make sure we can get to the money.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:09:18] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Why do you do it?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:09:18] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If somebody has to and we have the kids.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:09:23] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I&#8217;m not making the connection. Somebody has to. Why is it you?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:09:23] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Because, honestly, I don&#8217;t trust Jeff to handle the money. I&#8217;ve seen his splurging, and I don&#8217;t feel like<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">he has the confidence or the follow through to be able to handle it and trust that something isn&#8217;t going<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">to get turned off or something isn&#8217;t going to happen.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:09:43] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So you do the best you can. And then what.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:09:49] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I&#8217;m looking at which of those we could skip this month, which ones we could do a partial pay on. Looking<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">for solutions because I feel like sometimes we&#8217;re drowning.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:09:54] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What solutions have you looked for engaged with?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:10:01] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Uh, we&#8217;ve done credit cards, personal loans.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:10:01] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Wait wait wait. Credit cards is a solution.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:10:07] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It&#8217;s a temporary solution.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:10:07] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh, okay. Okay. Go on.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:10:07] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Made it so I could pay the bill. We did get a personal loan at one point to pay off the credit cards, but<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">did not follow through with that the right way. And ended up with that debt. Plus the credit cards.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:10:19] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What else?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:10:19] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Um, we have looked at bankruptcy.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:10:26] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay. What would somebody else do in terms of a solution if they don&#8217;t know how to manage their money?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:10:32] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They would look at learning how to and figuring out a way to manage it with what they have?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:10:39] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes. Have you done that?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:10:39] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I&#8217;m starting to, but I&#8217;m very new to it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:10:46] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You&#8217;ve been married almost 20 years. Can we just cut to the chase? I&#8217;m not interested in what you&#8217;ve done<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">in the last one month. People always clean their house before the house cleaner comes. I&#8217;m not interested<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">in that. Have you looked into books and courses and videos and learned about how money works?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:10:59] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I didn&#8217;t look into courses and videos because to me it always felt like they were geared either towards<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">people that already had money or it was eat beans and never leave your house until you&#8217;re completely debt<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">free. Okay, and that didn&#8217;t seem sustainable either. That wasn&#8217;t the way that I wanted to live my life or<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">wanted us to have to liberalize.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:11:23] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Jeff, you want to add anything to what you just heard there?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:11:23] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, I&#8217;ll be honest. Until she mentioned she&#8217;s been watching this, you know, and, I mean, I knew we had<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">problems, but again, it&#8217;s the ostrich in the sand. If I don&#8217;t watch anything, she watches. I&#8217;m in my own<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">little world. And, uh.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:11:42] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Are you in your own world about money as well?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:11:42] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">100%. Um, I just don&#8217;t look at it. If I don&#8217;t ask about it, then I don&#8217;t have anxiety about it. In my<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">world, it was better for me not to know and then to cause myself anxiety and worry and stress.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:11:56] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So meanwhile, it&#8217;s not just the ostrich in the sand. The ostrich in the sand is being fed, cable is being<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">provided, lights are being provided for the ostrich. The ostrich is living quite a good life. They&#8217;re<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">chilling.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:12:12] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah. I&#8217;ll be the first one. You know, they acknowledge that I&#8217;ve saddled the burden of our finances.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:12:17] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Will you be the first to make a change?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:12:17] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I&#8217;m trying. Uh, Michelle is sorry.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:12:17] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I didn&#8217;t get a yes or no answer to my question. You will?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:12:24] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:12:24] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It&#8217;s pretty easy to tell that I am frustrated in this conversation. You know, here we have the parent<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">child dynamic again, which is inherently frustrating talking about two adults, but it&#8217;s especially such a<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">tired old trope to have the guy be the one who&#8217;s just like, I don&#8217;t know, what should I do? You&#8217;re better<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">at money. I kind of just tired of it. I hope I&#8217;m not too forward in saying this, but get up guys. Stop<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">sitting around and waiting for somebody else to come and save you. No one is coming to do it, so<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">apologies if I come off a little too strong, but this is what&#8217;s going on with me inside right now. What&#8217;s<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">the exact date where you will be debt free? What&#8217;s the exact date when you&#8217;ll be rich? Most people don&#8217;t<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">think this is something you can plan for. It&#8217;s just something one day in the future. Wrong. This is<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">something you can plan for. In fact, I created Rich Life Road to 100 K to show you step by step how to<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">figure it out. In the program, we cover exactly what you need to focus on how to accelerate your timeline<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">so you can get there faster, and how to live your rich life along the way. Plus, we have tons of added<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">bonuses in this program like live weekly calls, access to a great community, and a library of vast<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">content all at your fingertips. You can join this program today at 100 K. Think about what a perfect day<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">in your retirement would look like. How old are you? Where are you? Who are you with? I think retirement<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">planning is about more than just the numbers on some spreadsheet. If you want help making your retirement<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">actually feel like a rich life, consider working with our partners at facet. Financial planning is<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">changing and facet is helping make that happen instead of taking a percentage of your portfolio. Facet<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">charges one flat membership fee for financial planning. Never a percentage of your assets, never a<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">commission and facet gives you access to a team of CFP professionals, Always a CFP, always a fiduciary<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">who help you create a personalized financial plan that meets you where you are. Your team is there for<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">the decisions that are going to come your way. Maybe buying a house, tackling debt, managing investments,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">saving for kid&#8217;s college, traveling in retirement, estate planning all of it. Plus, their mobile app<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">makes it easy to do everything in one spot like tracking your goals, checking balances out, messaging<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">your planner, seeing monthly action steps, and more. As of the date of this recording, facet is waiving<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">the enrollment fee for new annual members and for my audience. Fassett is offering $300 into your<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">brokerage account. If you invest and maintain $5,000 within your first 90 days. Head to facet to learn<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">about which membership option is best for you. Facet is an SEC registered investment advisor. I&#8217;m not a<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">member of facet, and I have an incentive to endorse facet, as I have an ongoing fee based contract for<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">cash compensation. Based on this endorsement, all opinions are my own and not a guarantee of a similar<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">outcome. After we traveled across the world for three and a half months, I remember when we got home and<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">the first thing we thought when we walked in our bedroom and lay down was, it&#8217;s good to be back in our<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">own bed. And that&#8217;s because we have a Lisa mattress now. We could have gone out and bought any mattress,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">but we chose to buy not only one Lisa mattress, but multiple because we love them so much. So this is a<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">product I personally love and use, and I want to tell you why you will too. Lisa has a lineup of premium,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">beautifully crafted mattresses designed specifically for how you sleep, whether it&#8217;s on your stomach,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">side, or back. They use eco friendly materials like their new Green Flex Foam, made from USDA certified<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">renewable plant based materials that cool you as you sleep and stay sag free for years. Plus, they make<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">it easy to figure out which mattress is the best fit for you. Just take their two minute quiz and you<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">will know exactly the right mattress. Every Lisa mattress comes with free shipping, easy returns, and a<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">365 night sleep trial. Go to Lisa Dotcom for up to 30% off mattresses, plus get an extra $50 off with<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">promo code Remote Exclusive. For my listeners, that&#8217;s LEESA promo code remote for up to 30% off<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">mattresses, plus an extra $50 off. Let them know we sent you in the survey after checkout. Lisa. Com<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">promo code. Ramit. Jeff, when&#8217;s the last time you and Michelle had tension around money?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:16:56] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The thing is, is I just I walk away from it so I don&#8217;t let the tension. I just, I think I just tend to be<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">an agreement person of. Okay,<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:17:10] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<ol>\n<li><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Feel like you&#8217;re doing that right now to me. Jeff, do you bring up money conversations.<\/span><\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:17:10] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Only when I don&#8217;t get what I want?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:17:16] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Give me an example.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:17:16] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The last biggest thing I asked for was a smoker.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:17:21] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay,<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:17:21] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">realistically, I knew we were never going to use it, but I wanted to have it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:17:21] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When was this?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:17:28] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Before Father&#8217;s Day, I think. Michel. Wasn&#8217;t it?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:17:28] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A few months ago.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:17:28] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And what did you say to Michelle? Where were you? And what did you say to her?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:17:33] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Now, I remember we were at Costco. Actually.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:17:33] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Can we just recreate this? Say what you actually said back then. Go ahead. Jeff.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:17:40] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Look at the smoker. It&#8217;d be nice to, you know, put a turkey or. Or the bacon or the cheese.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:17:45] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah. I don&#8217;t really like smoked boots. And we already had one. And you barely used it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:17:52] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is newer. It has pellets. You know, we would use it more. You can also, you know, it&#8217;s not just a<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">smoker. It&#8217;s also a grill.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:18:04] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Well, we don&#8217;t have the space for it, and I really don&#8217;t think we need it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:18:10] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But we get rid of your barbecue and we can put the new one there.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:18:10] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I like my barbecue. My barbecue. Works absolutely fine. We just need to clean it before the summer hits.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:18:17] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This would be easier upkeep because it&#8217;s pellets and not gas?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:18:22] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">No, I remember pellets being more expensive, and that was one of the reasons we didn&#8217;t use the last<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">smoker you had.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:18:28] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay. Okay. Time out. Pause. Great job. That was very authentic. Did you reach a resolution on that<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">conversation?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:18:33] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">No, I didn&#8217;t get it. It&#8217;s in the long run. I know it&#8217;s not practical.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:18:39] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Why&#8217;d you ask, then?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:18:39] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Because it&#8217;s shiny.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:18:46] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Is it serious? Like, are you. Are you being serious right now?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:18:46] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">No. I&#8217;m serious. Yeah. No, it was shiny. It was something new. It was something that I wanted. You know,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I&#8217;ve seen it before, and I&#8217;m competing with my father. And, you know, because he had one, I wanted one,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:18:56] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Whoa. What? Michel, what was that reaction from you?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:19:01] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That was agreement. Because that&#8217;s a lot of what it comes down to. His dad gets a smoker and suddenly he<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">wants a smoker. His dad gets a black stone and talks about how great that is. And Jeff wants to get a<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">box. Stone.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:19:14] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Wow. That little example there shined so much light on the dynamic here. Can I ask you both what role was<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">each of you playing? Uh, Jeff, what role were you playing?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:19:28] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I was more of the dreamer. She&#8217;s more of the real, you know, realistic. She&#8217;s the one that keeps me<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">grounded. Of saying it&#8217;s got a dub. You know you&#8217;re not going to use it. You used the last one maybe<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">once.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:19:39] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay, dreamer. And when you say she keeps you grounded, if she wasn&#8217;t there, what would you do?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:19:44] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I would have bought it. You know, I would have spent the money and dealt with the consequences later.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And, um. That&#8217;s what I&#8217;ve always done.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:19:51] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay. And, Michelle, what role were you playing?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:19:57] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I was being the authoritarian. I was trying to put roles down in control things.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:20:05] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Mm. I agree with everything you both just said. And I see Jeff as pushing the limits, even kind of<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">knowing. You kind of said it with a smile. Jeff. I knew I really shouldn&#8217;t get it. I knew it&#8217;s not<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">practical, but, like, let me try to get it anyway. Pushing the limits. And Michelle, whether<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">involuntarily or voluntarily, takes on the role of. The parent. The parent and the parent has to do what?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Michelle, I<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:20:37] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">have to say. No.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:20:37] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You have to say no. You have to give a list of reasons. And I noticed that you both engage in this thing.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Jeff says, what about this? Then you have to explain why not? Well, what about this? No. Well, I don&#8217;t<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">know. Well, what about this? The pellets are actually more expensive. And then does anyone walk out of<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">there feeling good? Well, I&#8217;ll just ask you, did you walk out of there feeling good?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:20:56] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Eventually, but I was I was initially frustrated that it was a conversation again, and it felt like I was<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">having to defend the no.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:21:01] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah. I don&#8217;t know what I was expecting. Oh, when I asked, knowing, you know, I knew the outcome<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">eventually was going to be no. But, you know, it was I don&#8217;t know why I did it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:21:15] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You know why. Think about it. Why did you ask? You know why.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:21:20] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There&#8217;s a 5050 chance that she would say yes.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:21:20] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Exactly.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:21:20] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And that&#8217;s how we got in to 95% of where we&#8217;re at is because I&#8217;m an impulse. And there&#8217;s sometimes she<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">just doesn&#8217;t want to deal with it. And then I&#8217;m dealt with the consequences and who&#8217;s.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:21:34] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Who&#8217;s dealt with the consequences.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:21:34] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Well, both of us. Well, mostly her, because then she has to figure out, okay, that $500, where is that<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">going to be pulled from?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:21:46] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Michelle, what are you what are you noticing as you hear this from Jeff?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:21:46] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It&#8217;s kind of frustrating because he knows what he&#8217;s doing and still does it, even though it puts more<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">pressure on me and makes things more difficult for me. Yes. And I feel like he&#8217;s doing it intentionally,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">which doesn&#8217;t feel cool.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:22:03] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It doesn&#8217;t feel cool, Jeff, I don&#8217;t that&#8217;s why I didn&#8217;t really buy you saying, I don&#8217;t know why I do it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You know why you do it. Just like anybody knows why they walk into a casino and they gamble. Because once<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">every 20 times they win a little bit of money and it&#8217;s a little bit of fun. It&#8217;s actually fun. I could<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">kind of see the glee on your face when you talked about the smoker and the pellets and the this, and<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">that&#8217;s fun for you to talk about, but it&#8217;s not fun for Michelle because she&#8217;s thrust into this role of<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">being the, as she put it, the authoritarian or the naysayer, the the. No. That&#8217;s kind of just sucks.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:22:30] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">No, it&#8217;s not right for me to put her in that spot either.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:22:37] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">How long have you been doing this for?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:22:37] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I mean, the last, biggest thing was when I convinced her to buy a timeshare when we were in Vegas on<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">vacation. It&#8217;s been going on a while.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:22:48] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah. This dynamic, I would say probably since around 2010, 2011. I mean, back in 2010, it was just me<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and her. We were back then. We were paycheck to paycheck, but we were making it work.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:23:01] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Looking back, I&#8217;m always curious about this. Do you see any clues with each other early in on your<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">relationship, financially speaking, with where you are now?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:23:08] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh yeah, we have a bigger paycheck, but it&#8217;s almost a mirror image of where we were 20 years ago. Still<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">feeling like we&#8217;re not making enough. Still doing the silly splurges. Um, just with a little more<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">responsibility now because we have the kids.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:23:25] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh, yeah. Oh, when? Yeah, when we met each other, I was going through a divorce, and I had disposable<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">income. Um, I didn&#8217;t care. I was living in an RV and my parent&#8217;s property, and. Yeah, I didn&#8217;t have any<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">any other expenses except for the rent that was paying them to live in the RV. And, yeah, I don&#8217;t look at<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">long term finances. I look, you know, the here and now.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:23:50] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Do you look at long term for anything?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:23:50] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I mean, I do have life insurance.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:23:50] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Just in general. Are you a long term person or.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:23:56] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">No. I used to. Be. Um, but as I got older and more cynical, I stopped.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:24:02] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What caused you to become more short term thinking?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:24:02] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Just the way our world is? And, you know, you see, every day it&#8217;s. You know, you could be out of Walmart<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">grocery shopping, and somebody else is having a worse day than you and decides to go on a rampage. You<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">could be watching a movie.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:24:13] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Were you ever long term thinking about money?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:24:20] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, with my first wife. Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:24:20] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay. Michelle, are you a long term thinker?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:24:27] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">No, I think it depends. I want to be a long term thinker, but I don&#8217;t always have the patience for it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:24:33] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But oddly enough, you talk about your impending cremation decades from now. I don&#8217;t mind it. I&#8217;m learning<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">a lot already. This is very helpful.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:24:38] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I wasn&#8217;t caring, but then we had our first kid, and I recognized that we needed to be more careful in<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">some areas, and we needed to start saying no to things and just.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:24:50] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Who needed to say no.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:24:57] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I needed to say no to Jeff when he would want to do things or get things that didn&#8217;t make sense.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:25:03] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And thus the pattern was born 15 plus years ago. First kid was born. Who was the person who made the<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">decision to change the dynamic around money? Michelle, in the sense that I need to now take on the burden<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and say no. So I&#8217;m going to create this almost force field. I will absorb all of Jeff&#8217;s inquiries. Can we<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">get this? Can we get that? What about this? Let&#8217;s buy a timeshare and I&#8217;ll take on the burden myself. And<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">once in a while I&#8217;ll crack. Or as Jeff puts it, 50% of the time I&#8217;ll crack, which will lead us into more<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">financial trouble. But I am the one who&#8217;s going to have to say no to Jeff.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:25:37] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think in the last six months, I&#8217;m understanding that we&#8217;re not in a good spot. I&#8217;ve not been trying to<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">play the games of let&#8217;s buy this, buy that.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:25:51] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What? When was the Costco thing?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:25:51] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Father&#8217;s day, two months ago. I&#8217;m trying to be better as she&#8217;s explaining more and more and opening up<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">more and more.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:25:57] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">How long is it going to take?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:26:03] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I don&#8217;t know, I&#8217;m kind of I&#8217;m pigheaded and know the ramifications if I don&#8217;t learn. And if I don&#8217;t ask,<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:26:10] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">what are they?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:26:10] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We&#8217;re going to be like my parents, living in a place that they can&#8217;t afford to move out of. When the<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">floors are falling apart and the wiring is going and the mold is spreading, and there&#8217;s nothing else they<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">can do because they&#8217;re on Social Security and they&#8217;re too far in debt.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:26:26] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I&#8217;m being pretty relentless with Jeff. I&#8217;m asking him a lot of questions with increasing intensity and<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">specificity. It&#8217;s not an accident. I&#8217;m doing this on purpose. Jeff lives in a world where he says a lot<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">of words that are up in the clouds, and Michelle simply accepts them. You see this in couples, where<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">they&#8217;ve been together for a long time, so they don&#8217;t really interrogate what each other means. But I<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">don&#8217;t accept that. And I have the latitude to ask him questions, to make him own what he&#8217;s actually<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">saying. I think he probably has never actually heard himself say what he actually means. He&#8217;s been living<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">in the clouds, and I&#8217;m here to bring him down to the street. What was it like doing the conscious<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">spending plan together?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:27:05] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We didn&#8217;t. She tried to show me the numbers. Um, but my ADHD had me thinking about other stuff.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:27:16] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Are you diagnosed?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:27:16] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">No. Um. But I know I have it. Um. Because something. Because reality. You know, ignorance is bliss. If<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">you know, I know that I have problems. It&#8217;s definitely there. My son has it. Yeah.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:27:30] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Is he diagnosed?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:27:30] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh, yeah, 100%. Yeah, I definitely see the patterns of him in me.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:27:37] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Mhm. Mhm. Why have you not gotten diagnosed?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:27:37] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I don&#8217;t like doctors. I don&#8217;t like going to doctors. It&#8217;s Michelle tells me to do it all the time. It&#8217;s<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">just I think again it goes back to you know I don&#8217;t want the reality or the medications or it&#8217;s easy for<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">me to, you know, blame it on that then.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:27:55] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah. Anything else? When you suspected your son had ADHD. Did you seek out help.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:28:02] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">For my son? Yes. Right away. Right away. Yes, I. Yeah. When he was in elementary school.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:28:08] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But not for you. Even though it affects your wife.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:28:15] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">For me, it&#8217;s. It&#8217;s being selfish.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:28:15] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You&#8217;re okay being selfish. It&#8217;s rare that I hear someone admit that you&#8217;ve now mentioned it twice.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:28:22] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It&#8217;s. It&#8217;s me. It&#8217;s it&#8217;s how it comes down again. It&#8217;s. It&#8217;s my house.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:28:29] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Look at your wife. You told me that she&#8217;s the one worried at the grocery store about going up to the<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">counter in the car. Doesn&#8217;t charge. It goes.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:28:40] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It goes beyond. You know that again, if nobody communicates about where we are with the money, where we<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">send. You know, it&#8217;s hard for me to focus on, okay, this is the issues. Okay.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:28:46] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I want to ask you both, how do you like to proceed here today? Because you both came on money for<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">couples. this is not money for one person in a couple, it&#8217;s money for couples. I have a very strong<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">philosophy. The only way that you two of you will succeed is if the two of you are a team. And right now,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">this is the opposite of teamwork.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:29:12] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I&#8217;ve been trying to be more engaging. Yeah, because I know this is important. You know, we&#8217;re 45 years,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">46 years old.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:29:17] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Jeff, I don&#8217;t think trying harder is really going to change much.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:29:23] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And for me, trying harder is better than not trying at all. The last couple of days, last week or two,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">uh, I&#8217;ve been showing commitment to move outside of my comfort zone and going back to school. I got super<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">out of my comfort zone and started applying for new places, and it took a lot because I don&#8217;t like<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">uncertainty and I don&#8217;t like new things. And anything going forward is is trying rather than just sitting<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">back and letting Michelle shoulder the the burden. I mean, for me, putting in an effort is is trying<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">rather than not.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:30:04] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And part of that might be you admitting that or at least trying to go to the doctor. I think part of your<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">fear is going to the doctor, them saying, oh, there&#8217;s nothing wrong, it&#8217;s just your personality. And I<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">say that as somebody with mental health issues that didn&#8217;t go to the doctor for a very long time for<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">them, because I was afraid they were going to tell me it was all in my head.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:30:25] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I know again, again, going back to that fear of the unknown. If you know, is it my personality, then how<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">can I fix the personality?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:30:35] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Well, there&#8217;s lots of ways to do that too.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:30:35] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">No, I agree. I mean, I know it&#8217;s again, I&#8217;m conscious of me being selfish. I don&#8217;t agree with it. It&#8217;s<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">it&#8217;s my personality. It&#8217;s it&#8217;s easier for me just to to laugh it off, push it aside and and just move on<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">to the next thing. Yes, I know it hurts, Michelle, but at the same time, I don&#8217;t know how to get out of<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">the cycle.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:31:02] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What do you mean? She&#8217;s telling you a very clear next step to get out of the cycle. Are you hearing her?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:31:07] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I am hearing her.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:31:07] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What is she saying? Put it plainly in English for me.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:31:12] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That at the end of this call I should speak to my doctor?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:31:12] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes. And what is your response to that?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:31:18] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That we will talk about it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:31:18] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I&#8217;m struggling a bit right now. I want to help. I&#8217;m here. I&#8217;m prepared. I&#8217;m ready. This would be one<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">thing if the two of you had $2,000 of credit card debt. We could be flexible. We could work through it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The status of your financial situation is much different. You are in your 40s. You have three children<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">now. Is there a way to fix it? I think so, but I cannot fix it. I cannot even help you fix it unless both<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">of you are 100% in and committed. I&#8217;m not hearing that right now. I&#8217;m hearing we should think about it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We should talk about it. I&#8217;ve started trying in the last two weeks. The only way out of this is full<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">commitment from both of you. So here&#8217;s what I would like to propose. I would like for the next five<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">minutes for you to to go off camera. And I would like for you to talk. What do you want? Because if the<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">answer is, hey, we&#8217;re not both ready to fully commit. Just come back here, tell me and we will part ways.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">No hard feelings at all. But if you want my help, if you want to have a future that is bigger than a<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">cremation, there has to be full commitment. So I want to give you the next five minutes talk. Come back<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and let&#8217;s discuss whatever decision you reach. I will respect it. I&#8217;ll see you back in a few. I almost<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">ended the call right here, and I never do that. I want to help. I believe that I can help most people if<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">they are willing to be helped. My show is called money for couples. It&#8217;s not money for individuals. And<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">if I&#8217;m going to do what I do, I need both parties to want to be here. So I sent them away. I&#8217;m not sure<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">how this is going to go. I think for the first time on this podcast, they may leave and not come back.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We&#8217;ll find out. Final few months of the year. I recommend using it to tie up loose ends and start the new<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">year off right. Book your doctor&#8217;s appointments, check in with your accountant, and if you have children,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I recommend getting sorted out with term life insurance from Fabric by Gerber Life. So you are covered in<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">case something happens. Fabric by Gerber Life offers term life insurance. You can get done today all<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">online on your schedule, right from your couch. You could be covered in under ten minutes, often with no<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">health exam required. Fabric has flexible policies built to fit your family and your spending plan, plus<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">free digital wills and tools to help you invest in your kids future right from your phone. Fabric has a<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">30 day money back guarantee and you can cancel at any time. Join the thousands of parents who trust<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">fabric to help protect their family. Apply today in just minutes at meet fabric. Meat. Meat. Meat<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">policies issued by Western Southern Life Assurance Company, Cincinnati, Ohio, which operates in DC and<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">all states except New York. Distributed by Gerber Life Agency, LLC using fabric technologies. See Meet<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Fabric for additional disclosures. This is a paid ad. One of my favorite things on this podcast is<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">watching my guests have an aha moment about their money dynamics. Because these money problems are not<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">just numbers they put on their conscious spending plan. You can build the perfect CSP, but if you don&#8217;t<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">understand why you behave the way you do, the numbers are just going to keep repeating themselves. That&#8217;s<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">what growing feels like. It&#8217;s a mindset shift. It&#8217;s a different way of looking at the same problem, and<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">therapy can help you do that in every part of your life. Grow therapy can help you find the right license<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">therapist for you. Grow is therapy that works covered by insurance. Grow connects you to thousands of<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">high quality licensed therapists across the US that work with your schedule virtual in-person sessions,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">nights, weekends. They have an option that will work for you. You can search by What matters by identity,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">specialty availability, insurance coverage. You can find a therapist who&#8217;s the right fit for you. Grow<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">makes it easy to book an appointment in minutes and begin sessions in as little as two days. See if you<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">could pay as little as $0 for therapy in seconds. At growth therapy, that&#8217;s growth therapy. Availability<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. I waited five minutes, came and went. Seven minutes came.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was like the Apollo 13 movie. The time has come and gone and suddenly the flickering came back. And to<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">me, that&#8217;s actually a beautiful moment. You have to really want help to come on. Money for couples. It&#8217;s<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">not easy. It is not. It is hard. It&#8217;s hard to talk about your relationship publicly. It&#8217;s hard to share<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">numbers that are often embarrassing or shameful. Maybe to even admit that you, or your behavior, or even<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">your character may need some development that is incredibly difficult. So I give them props for coming<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">back. I really appreciate I appreciate every guest that does. How was your conversation?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:36:24] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think we&#8217;re on the same page. I mean, it&#8217;s realigning. You know, we took a second to realign<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">expectations, and we have both expressed what we wanted out of this that I need to take, you know, to<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">take that step of going to the doctor and seeing if it&#8217;s in my head or if it&#8217;s just my personality. But I<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">have to make that conscious step of being supportive and not just looking at myself and what&#8217;s right for<\/span><\/p>\n<ol>\n<li><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> But I&#8217;m willing to change. I&#8217;m willing to learn. And<\/span><\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:37:01] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Michelle, what about you? What&#8217;d you talk about?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:37:01] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I mean, sure, if I asked him or let him know that this needs to be something that he wants to do because<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">he wants to do it, not just because I want him to do it. I also accepted that I need to be willing to<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">share the control and talk about it, and not just bottle it up.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:37:19] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Great. This is about creating an action plan, not a I hope this happens in the future plan. I love that.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So just so I&#8217;m clear, are you agreeing you&#8217;re going to go talk to a doctor about ADHD and whatever else<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">may be on your mind and see what they say?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:37:38] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, I&#8217;ve already committed to Michelle.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:37:44] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think that&#8217;s awesome. It&#8217;s going to make a profound change in your life. ADHD and money is a studied<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">phenomenon. This is very well studied. We had an ADHD expert on money from the Financial Therapist<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Association, doctor Christine Hargrove, in our Rich life program. We&#8217;re going to put a link for people if<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">they&#8217;d like to join the program, and they can access that. We have a whole community in the program where<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">many people share openly about what it&#8217;s like to have ADHD, how it relates to their money. This is an<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">important topic, one that we talk about. So that&#8217;s number one. I want you to get diagnosed, if<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">appropriate, or at least talk to your doctor. That&#8217;s a massive change. I actually want to just take a<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">second to give you both a round of applause. I actually think this could be a different trajectory for<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">the two of you, for the rest of your lives and for your children. Fantastic. This is big. Shall we<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">continue on knowing Jeff has work to do. He&#8217;s going to see a doctor. He&#8217;s going to pursue that of his own<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">accord, not because Michelle wants it. Michelle has already committed to being willing to give up some<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">control. And so we know those things are going to require a lot of work, a lot of time and compassion<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">from each other. But let&#8217;s just assume that those happen very well. Let&#8217;s keep moving. I would like to<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">put this conscious spending plan up on screen, and I would like to go through it. Okay. Assets 26,800.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Investments $264. Savings $571. Debt $186,000. For a total net worth of -$159,170. Okay. What is the<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">debt?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:39:29] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Both of our student loans. I want to say we&#8217;re around 65.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:39:29] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:39:29] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The car and then credit card. The credit cards and the loans.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:39:36] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">How much are the credit cards? The credit<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:39:41] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">cards are at 18 for and the loan is currently at 17.5.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:39:41] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What do you make of these numbers?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:39:48] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They suck.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:39:48] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah. What else?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:39:48] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">From my perspective, it doesn&#8217;t look like there&#8217;s a way out of it to be. One thing I did want to add that<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I didn&#8217;t get to when we took out the personal loan, what spurred it on was we were going to have a<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">judgment against us from creditors, and we were facing garnishment. Yeah. And we needed the loan to pay<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">that off. There was still student loans at that point too, but we were focused on not getting garnished.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:40:12] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Why?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:40:12] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was 25% of my take home pay. That would have killed us. That would have. We wouldn&#8217;t have made them<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">pay rent. We wouldn&#8217;t.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:40:23] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What&#8217;d you end up doing?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:40:23] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Took the loan out.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:40:23] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The loan out? Did it help or hurt?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:40:23] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It ended up hurting because we didn&#8217;t do it the right way.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:40:29] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Exactly. Okay. Income. We have Hundred and $87 a month in gross income. That&#8217;s $178,000. That&#8217;s a lot.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah. Like you take home $10,600 a month. That&#8217;s pretty good. Again, keeping in mind you have three kids.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So we need to put this in context. $178,000. You&#8217;re essentially contributing nothing to your 401.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:40:56] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We just started the four KS. I was nervous about losing money in the paycheck, so I started off at, I<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">think, 1%.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:41:02] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Your fixed costs are 87%. Well, right there is why you feel stressed out about money. Michelle. That plus<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Jeff ignoring it 87% means you can&#8217;t get ahead and it effectively means you are spending more than you<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">make every single month. Are you aware of that?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:41:14] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:41:20] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah. All right, let&#8217;s take a look. Your rent or mortgage is. Huh? Am I reading this right? $1,695.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:41:26] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It is rent. We are extraordinarily lucky. I have an amazing landlord.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:41:26] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Amazing 11.39% never leave. Where&#8217;s all the rest of the money going? 87%. Utilities 668. Fine car payment<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">$1,000. Is this for 1 or 2 cars?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:41:39] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:41:39] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What&#8217;d you get?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:41:46] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It is a Nissan Pathfinder.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:41:46] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Why? And how much did it cost?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:41:46] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Because we needed the seating for five people. The winters here can be harsh, and you do need to be able<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">to get up your hills. Otherwise, you&#8217;re going to be walking half a mile in the snow. How much did the car<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">cost? Um. 76,000.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:42:02] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">$76,000. Who decided on that one?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:42:09] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Uh, that was me. That we got the little flier. Hey, uh, we can get you in a better car and and all this.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And we just went in there with the understanding that we would, you know, not pay more than what we were<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">paying when we left. I decided in the long run that it would be better for us to have a newer car with a<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">better warranty. Uh, it has less miles that we could maintain.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:42:34] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Jeff. Looking back. Was that a good decision?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:42:34] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">No, it was not. Um, because we I think our payments went up. It was like $300 extra a month. He<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:42:48] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">was very convincing at the time, and the idea of having a more reliable, reliable vehicle did seem like a<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">smart move.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:42:55] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Um, grew. Up. Poor?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:42:55] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes. Yes. Well, technically, yes.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:43:02] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That&#8217;s a luxury vehicle.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:43:02] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I will also add that part of it, I think, was also the fact. Oh, you&#8217;re going to approve us for financing<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">on a nicer car?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:43:08] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That&#8217;s a classic. That&#8217;s exactly who they target. First of all, you should not be responding to things<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">coming in the mail. Any mail you get is, by definition, a bad deal. They&#8217;re literally buying high risk<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">addresses and sending out and giving you the worst deal. And you bought it. Again, I&#8217;m not saying this to<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">berate you or beat you down. I&#8217;m actually trying to show you the game being played around you and you<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">were susceptible to it, but you also willingly participated in it. So this is accountability is learning.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hey, we did this decision. We Jeff was convinced by the the we need this and that. And he says looking<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">back is a bad decision. Agreed, Michel. We need a more reliable car. And now here you are with a $1,000<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">payment. That&#8217;s crazy. All right, let&#8217;s move on. Uh, debt management plan. That&#8217;s $486. What is that?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:44:02] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It&#8217;s a nonprofit. They helped us work with our credit cards to get them shut down, get the, uh, interest<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">rates lowered on most of them, and we pay that. They pay them. There is no additional fee that they add<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">on to it or anything.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:44:21] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Cool. What&#8217;s the other debt?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:44:21] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Uh, loans that were not rolled into the debt management plan because that was just credit card. So that&#8217;s<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">the personal loan. Um, we have a loan for furniture that were finished. Almost paid off on.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:44:34] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You took a loan for furniture?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:44:34] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes. Because we couldn&#8217;t afford to pay.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:44:40] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">How much was the furniture?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:44:40] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I want to say it was $3,000.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:44:40] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What did you get for 3000?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:44:40] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We got a new couch. We got a new website. Um, I will also 100% say part of this was emotionally coping<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">with my mom passing and us having to take over the upstairs of the house that had been hers and wanting<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">it to be ours.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:45:08] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I&#8217;m sorry to hear that. I want you both to get out of this cycle where it feels like there&#8217;s always<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">something coming up. That&#8217;s what it feels like, right?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:45:14] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes. I mean, we&#8217;re not even halfway down the fixed costs, and there&#8217;s just something that comes up.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There&#8217;s a car, there&#8217;s a credit card, there&#8217;s a sofa. There&#8217;s on and on and on. How long has it felt like<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">that? Always<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:45:29] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">like the car did not need to happen. Not that car. And there are a variety of other decisions I&#8217;m sure we<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">will discover that did not need to happen. So the real path forward is for the two of you to do some<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">heavy, sustained work on what are we getting out of being in this really reactive place, both of us. Can<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I just check in before we get into the numbers? How&#8217;s everybody feeling right now, Michel?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:45:55] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I&#8217;m okay.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:45:55] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You look a bit like there&#8217;s something going through your head, and I just want to check in with you. And<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I want to make sure that we&#8217;re not. Nobody feels like, hey, you know, this is just, like, hopeless.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That&#8217;s never my intention. Michel. How you feeling?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:46:11] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah. No, I definitely don&#8217;t feel hopeless. I think it&#8217;s just emotional conversations.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:46:16] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah. They&#8217;re hard. Um, yeah.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:46:16] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And I can be overly emotional.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:46:23] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There&#8217;s a lot of work to unpack there. Let&#8217;s keep going. We have medical, 200 groceries and household<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">good $2,000 a month. What&#8217;s that?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:46:29] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I have been struggling to get that down. Um, that was our average over the last several months when I was<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">looking at our purchases.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:46:36] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay, we&#8217;ll look at that in detail. Um, clothes, 100. Pets 300. How many pets?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:46:42] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Uh, we&#8217;ve got three dogs. And then we also have three cats.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:46:49] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh my God.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:46:56] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes we. Have. Yes, we have five cats and three dogs.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:46:56] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You have eight pets?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:47:03] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:47:03] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay. All right.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:47:03] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What do we got from her parents after they passed away? So we can&#8217;t really just tell him to go find<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">someplace else to live.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:47:16] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">How much of this stuff that we&#8217;re seeing on the CSP is, like, emotionally driven?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:47:16] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The debt. Most definitely.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:47:21] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The car was emotional.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:47:21] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes, we&#8217;re a car. I mean, the we went from having 26% interest on a car loan and they&#8217;re like, oh, we&#8217;ll<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">give you this loan for 10%. And it was kind of a reward for us. In my mind, it was worth for us getting<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">back on track. If that&#8217;s emotional. I think it&#8217;s 90% of my spending was emotional and self convincing.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes, we need it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:47:48] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Thank you.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:47:48] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I&#8217;m able to then put Michelle into my way of thinking.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:47:56] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Let&#8217;s just continue going down the list here we have eight pets for $300 a month. Phone $446 a month.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:48:02] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I&#8217;m working on that one.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:48:09] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Subscriptions at $192 a month and miscellaneous at $500 a month. 87%. You&#8217;re broke.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:48:09] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah,<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:48:17] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">just looking at it. What do you see here?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:48:17] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Spending too much.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:48:17] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay, Jeff.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:48:17] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah. We&#8217;re spending more than we make.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:48:23] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay. Your investments are at zero. Your savings are at $150 a month. And that started recently because<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">your total savings are $571.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:48:30] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:48:30] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And finally, your guilt free spending or what remains is $1,252. I&#8217;m certain it&#8217;s higher than that. Would<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">you agree?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:48:36] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It has to be with the way we feel every month.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:48:42] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What does this CSP tell you? Besides, you&#8217;re spending too much. What kind of people are you based on<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">these numbers?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:48:48] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We&#8217;re impulsive.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:48:55] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, we are short sighted rather than long.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:48:55] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:48:55] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Um, in more instant gratification, we were able to buy it. Makes you know that dopamine.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:49:02] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes. Why do you think you do it?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:49:02] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It&#8217;s just how I grew up. I mean, I didn&#8217;t have what I wanted. You know, it&#8217;s it&#8217;s. We were told. Know a<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">lot.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:49:15] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What did your family say about money when you were growing up? When you were young?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:49:15] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You didn&#8217;t talk about it. When we had the government brown box cheese and we, you know, there was times<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">we didn&#8217;t have the quarter for lunch because my parents made, you know, $100 more than the poverty line.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So that, again, the free lunch, we had reduced lunch, but at times we couldn&#8217;t have the breakfast or<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">lunch because we didn&#8217;t have the money to pay the school. But we didn&#8217;t talk about that. You don&#8217;t talk.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You don&#8217;t ask for help. You just do it. And consequences. And you know, there&#8217;s times where you get home.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There was no electricity. There was no running water. You just dealt with it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:49:50] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What happened as you got older?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:49:53] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I ended up starting to pay my parents to live where I was living with them. I&#8217;ve been paying my parents<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">since I was 14. I would work my job, that my money would go from me for my aunts to my parents. And that<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">was it, you know. And that continued on.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:50:05] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">How old were you when you stopped paying your parents?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:50:11] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When me and Michel moved in together after the tree fell into the motor home. So 24.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:50:18] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You basically have been paying somebody since you were a kid.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:50:18] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So that&#8217;s why I was 14.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:50:25] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, yeah.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:50:25] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was for me, the way for me to have some responsibility somewhere else. So took it off my shoulders and<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">put it on somebody else.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:50:31] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Let&#8217;s go back to your childhood. What? What do you remember about your dad?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:50:36] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What&#8217;s the drill, sergeant? So, um.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:50:36] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So it wasn&#8217;t a good relationship?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:50:43] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Um, we didn&#8217;t have a good relationship with my mom. My mom was those that typical, uh, housewife of the<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">80s. And, you know, she perpetuated a circle from her dad, and.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:50:54] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Can I ask you a question? This can be a tough question. You don&#8217;t have to answer. But I had to ask to<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">understand something. Was your dad disappointed in you?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:50:59] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh, yeah, 100%.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:51:05] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:51:05] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He would remind me of that all the time.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:51:05] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Does he still do that?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:51:05] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh, yeah.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:51:05] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What do you see in the fact that you compare yourself to your dad? He gets a smoker, you want a smoker,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">ET cetera.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:51:11] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">For me, I. I see that I&#8217;m always strive to be better than him. I&#8217;ve always made it a point not to be like<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">him, not to raise my children the way I was raised. I have Michelle, who&#8217;s definitely a strong,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">opinionated woman. Unlike what I grew up with. That&#8217;s why I value about her, because she will she will<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">call me out on my stupid ness.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:51:44] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As opposed to your mom, who is the, quote, traditional 80s housewife. And because your dad was a drill<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">sergeant who I&#8217;m assuming was very directive, told you all the things she needs you from you and you&#8217;re<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">doing wrong, etc. you. Now what? Hate being told what to do. Hate being told no. Look at Michelle&#8217;s face.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:52:04] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, I don&#8217;t like being told no. Um, but then I also understand the value of when Michelle says, no.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:52:11] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Not really, you hate being told no. We&#8217;ve seen that multiple times. No, we can&#8217;t get the smoker. Come on.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The pellets. No, we can&#8217;t get the car. Well, come on, it&#8217;s for the warranty. This seems to be a recurring<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">trend. Am I reading it wrong?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:52:26] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">No.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:52:26] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So why are you disagreeing with me?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:52:26] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It&#8217;s my nature, I guess.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:52:26] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes. This nature to disagree, to be contrarian, to provide the devil&#8217;s advocate.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:52:33] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah. It was a game for me when? With my father.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:52:40] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Exactly. Because no matter what I&#8217;m saying, something that is so obvious, it&#8217;s transparent. It is<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">axiomatic. And yet you&#8217;re disagreeing with me. Why? Because you love it. You get pleasure in disagreeing.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Because probably going back to your dad, there&#8217;s all kinds of stuff that was developed there. But it&#8217;s<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">very hard to be a partner with someone who disagrees reflexively just because. What are you realizing<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">right now? If anything.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:53:07] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There&#8217;s more things I have to work on.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:53:07] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes. And, man, it&#8217;s probably been really hard for Michelle, so I would love it if we can agree on some<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">basic stuff and then move forward. What do you say?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:53:14] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, that&#8217;s why I&#8217;m here. Is there? You see where we can where I can improve.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:53:21] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Great. Michelle, you heard all of that. I want to give you a second and invite you to chime in.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:53:26] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think part of it also is because of Jeff tries to overcompensate because of the type of father figure<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">he had. So he tries to overcompensate in some areas, like helping around the house and taking on<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">household chores that he never saw happen. Um, but on the flip side of that, he does that argumentative<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">comes up and I don&#8217;t like conflict, so I try to avoid it, and I think that&#8217;s a result. A lot of times of<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">me saying yes to is because I don&#8217;t want the argument. Yes, but I do think a lot of his choices, his<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">spending, his habits are a result of growing up poor and not having and now being an adult with adult<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">money.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:54:26] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And somewhere in the back of your mind, oh, I can do that because I have my adult money. It&#8217;s classic.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Happens to so many people who grew up poor. They make a little bit of money. They go, I&#8217;m never going to<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">go there again, I&#8217;m going to spend more, etc., etc., etc. it&#8217;s normal, but it can become destructive.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What&#8217;s interesting, Jeff, is hearing that you overcompensate, as Michelle puts it, but you overcompensate<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">in some really adaptive, positive ways, like helping around the house. That&#8217;s actually awesome.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:54:50] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Well, no, I mean, okay, in again, we&#8217;ll go back to.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:54:50] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:54:56] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I&#8217;m agreeing.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:54:56] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He&#8217;s over explaining.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:54:56] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Then why do you start your answer by saying,<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:55:02] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">no, no. I don&#8217;t know.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:55:02] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It actually reflects your worldview that I need to disagree. You&#8217;re saying no the way you said it was<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">even disagreeable. But you&#8217;re actually agreeing with me. Just say you&#8217;re. Right. And actually, I&#8217;m<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">complimenting you. And so is your wife. Hey, this guy helps around the house. That&#8217;s great. Jeff, take<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">the compliment. Go ahead.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:55:26] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes!<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:55:26] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That&#8217;s it. Boy, this is fascinating. This is why I do what I do. Yeah, money&#8217;s fine, but I love human<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">nature. And when I give Jeff a compliment and his first reaction is to say, no, no, no, actually, I go,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">oh my God. The lights started going off in my head. Even when I&#8217;m complimenting him, he&#8217;s rejecting it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He&#8217;s a contrarian and he doesn&#8217;t even know he&#8217;s doing it. There&#8217;s a constellation of psychological social<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">dynamics going on here. There&#8217;s something actually called oppositional reflex. Let me read it to you.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Opposition reflex is an innate, physical and instinctual reaction where an animal or human automatically<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">pushes or pulls against any applied physical pressure. I once got called out on this by a famous coach.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He said, why do you say no? When you answer questions? It shook me to my core because not only did I not<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">realize I had this verbal tic, but if you dig in, you realize, oh, I&#8217;m disagreeing for no good reason.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Jeff has a lot of layers to pull on. It&#8217;s one of the reasons that I really want him to see a doctor,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">because we can only do so much in a few hours here, but there&#8217;s actually a really beautiful life ahead as<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">you start to understand yourself. One thing I&#8217;ve discovered on this podcast is that a lot of us are<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">confused by our own behavior. Like are you? Think about it. Do you not know why you spend money a certain<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">way? Do you not know why? You tell yourself I should go to the gym. I should eat better. But you struggle<\/span><\/p>\n<ol>\n<li><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> You might actually be confused by your own behavior. And that&#8217;s a really perplexing place for us to<\/span><\/li>\n<li><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That&#8217;s why there&#8217;s so much beauty in being able to understand yourselves. Why I love what I do, and I<\/span><\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">want you to see these different aspects of human nature and why I interject so often saying, hey, here&#8217;s<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">what&#8217;s really going on here. I think it&#8217;s so beautiful to see how we are irrational and confusing and<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">complex. That&#8217;s what this is about. As for Jeff, I really want him to get a better understanding of<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">himself, not only for his own life, but also for his wife. Jeff, I want you to see, I actually I want you<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">to feel a sense of delight because you just learned something about yourself. You are reflexively<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">oppositional, and it doesn&#8217;t actually help you. You disagree. Even when we are talking in a complementary<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">way about you, and it&#8217;s actually not serving you. This would be topic number 1 or 2 that I would bring up<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">with my therapist. And I would also bring it up with my doctor, because you will be able to go so far,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">you cannot imagine how many opportunities have been around you, but you oppose them just normally being a<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">contrarian, but actually, like if you can change your way of looking at the world, you might find that a<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">lot of people are much more agreeable than you think. It&#8217;s like profound how deep you can go with this.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So I hope you take that and run with it as you speak to some of your medical providers. It&#8217;s actually<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">amazing what you&#8217;re going to be able to do. Are you cool with that?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:58:34] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:58:34] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay. Michelle, what about how you grew up? What do you remember about your family? What did they say<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">about money when you were young?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:58:40] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Not a whole lot I did. Sometimes I did hear, you know. No, you can&#8217;t have that. That&#8217;s too expensive. We<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">were okay, but barely. I remember my parents having an argument in my dad leaving, My mom kicking him<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">out, actually, until he got his back pay. Um, I remember my mom not being able to open a checking account<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">because she wrote too many bad checks. I remember being taught, don&#8217;t answer the door if it looks like<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">it&#8217;s the electric person, because they&#8217;re here to shut us off.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:59:15] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In what ways do you continue on the models that your parents set for you today?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:59:22] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There was a lot of struggling with managing bills. Um, I thought it was normal to not be able to pay all<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">of your bills every month.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:59:29] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay. What else?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:59:29] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Obviously, we don&#8217;t haven&#8217;t had conversations about money. It&#8217;s not something that we really talk about.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:59:34] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Talk to your kids about money.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:59:39] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">No. This has been a point of contention. We will tell them. No, we can&#8217;t afford that.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:59:43] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That&#8217;s what your parents told you?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:59:43] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:59:43] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Why do. Why do you continue the cycle?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:59:43] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One. It&#8217;s program. That&#8217;s how it&#8217;s supposed to be. You don&#8217;t burden the kids with the problems of money<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">other than to tell them, you know. No, we can&#8217;t get that.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:59:56] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And you today do not burden the kids with money, right?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:00:02] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">No.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:00:02] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. That&#8217;s quite interesting. You grew up poor. Right. That&#8217;s how you described it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:00:09] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Close to poor. Close. We weren&#8217;t as poor as Jeff&#8217;s family.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:00:09] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:00:09] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Um, we were never on state assistance, but we couldn&#8217;t pay our bills. We got kicked out of houses.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:00:15] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay. Foreclosures. Lower middle class. Let&#8217;s call it maybe poor.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:00:22] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:00:22] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In what ways are you trying to break the cycle of money that you were taught?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:00:27] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I have started pushing to when our kids asked, you know, how much did things cost? Telling them something<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">that Jeff&#8217;s is very much against. He will often tell them it doesn&#8217;t matter. We got it for you. Um, being<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">transparent with them on cost of things, talking to our son about savings and things that I would like to<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">help him do when he gets his first job, to get him into the habits that I didn&#8217;t have when I had my first<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">job.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:00:51] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What about actually modeling it?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:00:57] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I I&#8217;m trying to. Yes. That&#8217;s part. Again, that&#8217;s a piece of why I&#8217;m doing what I&#8217;m doing right now. I<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">want to be able to show him. Number one. It&#8217;s okay to ask for help. Yes. Number two, it&#8217;s okay if you<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">don&#8217;t know all the answers. You can figure it out. Yes. And number three, here are the things you can do<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">so that you don&#8217;t fall into the same cycle that we were in.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:01:22] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Great. Uh, Jeff, you.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:01:22] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah. Know me. Uh, I have been you&#8217;re more open with our son about it because he&#8217;s that age. And I wish<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">my parents would have sort of sat me down and explained things better. But I think also, me and Michelle<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">also have better patterns than our our parents. We&#8217;re not going to take out credit card in our kids names<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">or bank accounts. And our kids.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:01:48] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Who did that?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:01:48] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Both of our parents.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:01:48] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:01:55] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I went away and there was a bank that sent checks to my house thinking I was there. My parents forged my<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">name on these checks. And same thing with credit cards. What? And Michelle.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:02:09] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">My mother used credit cards. I think it was a Macy&#8217;s or JCPenney credit card that I got. Maxed it out.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Buying Christmas presents. Um. My dad. I don&#8217;t know if my dad&#8217;s kind of, like, was kind of like Jeff&#8217;s in<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">that he was not very good with money.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:02:23] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh, no. Hold on. I&#8217;m so shocked. I&#8217;m sure the parents are similar to what this is like. It&#8217;s like saying<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I drink water. Whoa. Really? Oh. Yeah. But. But recognizing that pattern is powerful. It&#8217;s great. Did you<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">know that before today?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:02:51] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I didn&#8217;t make the connection on the financial side. I knew part of why I fell in love with Jeff was<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">because he reminded me of my dad. With his stupid jokes and wanting to make people laugh and everything.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Um, but I hadn&#8217;t made the connection on the money side.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:03:10] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:03:10] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But my dad unknowingly used my checking information to sign up for something online.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:03:16] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I hate that. I hate that your parents did this to you. The people you should love and trust the most took<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">advantage of you. I want you, if you will allow me to trust that there is a way that you can actually<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">feel good about money. Do you believe that?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:03:34] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:03:34] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Michelle says yes. Jeff?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:03:34] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah. No, definitely. I mean, there&#8217;s yeah, I do believe there&#8217;s a way for us to feel better about money.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:03:41] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I had no idea that both of their parents had taken out debt in their names. I actually wish I had known<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">this earlier because it gives me so much more empathy. The feeling of being betrayed by the people<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">closest to you, and the way that that has to leak over into money, just make you feel horrible about<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">money. Hate money. Be obsessed with money. Want to ignore money? It&#8217;s all bad. Now, that was not their<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">fault. That debt was taken out. That their relationship with money was polluted from early on. But it is<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">their responsibility to fix it. They are adults. They have children. It&#8217;s important and nobody else is<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">coming to do it for them. So that is where we are. I&#8217;m glad to understand it. It provides a little bit<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">more context and it&#8217;s still their responsibility. I have a lot of friends who are entrepreneurs, a lot of<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">friends who are not entrepreneurs. And one difference between the two is that the friends who run<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">businesses basically have to be proactive at work all the time. They cannot wait for something to happen<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">or a boss to tell them what to do. So you&#8217;ll find that they&#8217;re kind of constantly looking around corners,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">trying to figure out what&#8217;s next so they can make plans. And I have found that being proactive is a<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">skill. If you want to be proactive with next year&#8217;s taxes, I recommend checking out this episode&#8217;s<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">sponsor. Gelt. Gelt is a modern CPA firm that helps your business take control of your tax strategy year<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">round. By working with gelt, you get access to one dedicated tax strategist with real human expertise,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">powered by cutting edge technology that handles the rest. They help with more than just your tax forms.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They can make strategic adjustments to things like how you pay yourself, your retirement plan setup, even<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">how you structure your business tax system. And right now in Q4, they can help you run a calculated<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">projection so you know exactly where you&#8217;ll land this year while you still have time to make changes.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Gelt is taking on new clients before the year is over. The smartest tax move you can make is not waiting<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">until next year to get started, so start your year end review at join google.com. I&#8217;m opening up Michelle<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and Jeff&#8217;s Monarch accounts so we can drill down into their actual spending over the past couple of<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">months. Now, our partners at monarch have customized their accounts to follow my exact Conscious Spending<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Plan categories, and you can download the CSP template for free at, or try out a customized monarch<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">account and see all of your numbers in real time. The two actually worked together beautifully. This is<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">available only for my listeners at monarch, and you can use code to try it for free and get 50% off your<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">first year of their core tier. All right. Um, can we look at some of the actual spending here? Yes. So I<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">did a little digging using Monarch. We had you connect your accounts. And so this allows us to drill down<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">a little bit deeper and see where some of the money is going. So let&#8217;s take a look. Here we have Klarna.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Why are you using Klarna.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:06:54] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah we use it when our TV broke and then a week later when the child broke the new TV, we had to get a<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">new TV because it wasn&#8217;t covered.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:07:00] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Can I ask you a question? One thing after another. You have a family with three kids. You&#8217;re in severe<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">debt. You have eight pets and your TV breaks twice in like five days. Do you need a new TV? Wow. Dead<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">silence on.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:07:12] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That like we did.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:07:20] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It felt like we needed a new TV. It felt like we needed a new car. It felt like we needed a new couch. It<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">felt. It felt. It felt. What is my point? That is reckless spending. You don&#8217;t have the money for it. I<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">don&#8217;t think either of you have ever said we simply don&#8217;t have the money for it. It&#8217;s always been. We&#8217;ll<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">figure out how to get the money for it or how to make the purchase happen. Yeah. You&#8217;re not figuring it<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">out. You have done everything except say no<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:07:37] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">for me. The TV was a way for me to unwind after 12 hours a day. And, you know, and it was a way for, you<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">know, it&#8217;s for the kids.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:07:51] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It&#8217;s not about the TV, it&#8217;s about the fact that we have a couple here, you in your 40s, in severe debt<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and inability to say no to like, it didn&#8217;t even occur to you that maybe we just say no to a TV.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:08:04] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah. I mean, for like 30s.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:08:04] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And then we justified it to ourselves then.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:08:11] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes. And you do that a lot. And that&#8217;s what has led to this spending. So I&#8217;m not going to sit here and do<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">some abracadabra with your conscious spending plan. It&#8217;s actually YouTube that have to do the work here,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">not me. What needs to change.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:08:22] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Our mindset of, you know of this because we have the ability to put it on credit.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:08:29] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You shouldn&#8217;t put it on credit.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:08:29] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes,<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:08:29] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">nothing goes on credit anymore. Tear them up. It&#8217;s over. Nothing goes on until you pay it off. That&#8217;s it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:08:35] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That is part of why I did the debt management plan, because it shut down all the credit cards, so I can&#8217;t<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">we can&#8217;t go back and fall back on them or use them impulsively. Um, I&#8217;ve removed all of the pay later<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">apps so that we can get them paid off and be done with them.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:08:53] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay, let&#8217;s take a look at some other, uh, expenses here. I actually love being able to dig in. See, we<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">to these through monarch. Let&#8217;s take a look here.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:09:05] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Honestly, I kind of liked it, too.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:09:05] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, it&#8217;s fun. Right? It&#8217;s quite revealing. And again, I like the CSP for being able to see the big<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">picture. And then we can dig into what the hell. Spring break.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:09:17] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay. That was. Just.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:09:17] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah. No not not everyone can see this. Let me just describe it first. Sorry I, I&#8217;m looking at a monthly<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">view of how much they spend eating out. And the chart is quite interesting. So I can see they&#8217;re eating<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">out. And November is 447. Then December is 1815 hundred 1400, and then $2,747 in one month.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:09:44] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We took the girls to Vegas for spring break. That was why that was the spike in eating out, because we<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">were enjoying ourselves, and I was going to figure it out later.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:09:58] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And have you figured it out?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:10:05] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">No.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:10:05] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What would the correct decision have been?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:10:05] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We would have done something locally.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:10:05] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, I would have taken still taking the time off. And that&#8217;s what our plan is for next year.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:10:12] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Again, if you if you made 150, $175,000 and you had no debt and all your stuff was dialed in, I&#8217;d be<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">like, God bless, this looks awesome. Looks like great food. Fantastic. You don&#8217;t. You put yourself in a<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">position where you&#8217;re in debt. You have very little savings. You have kids. If something happened, you<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">all are in big trouble. I think that&#8217;s why you came to me. Am I reading it right?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:10:40] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes, yes.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:10:40] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So what are you learning so far on today&#8217;s call right now?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:10:40] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Looking at these numbers that. The little stuff adds up.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:10:47] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah. You just see that you&#8217;re happy. Are you happy?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:10:47] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">No. Not looking at the numbers. I didn&#8217;t know we spent. You know, that much money eating out last last<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">month?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:10:52] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay. And, Michelle, what are you learning on this call?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:10:59] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That we need to be stricter with what we say. Yes or no?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:11:04] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">To keep talking. I want to hear more.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:11:04] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">For example, the eating out. I need to stick to my guns. We&#8217;re not going to eat out. And we&#8217;ll be eating<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">at home, no matter how tired I am or what the week was like.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:11:16] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Success requires hard work, but it often feels good. Being strict, sticking to my guns. That doesn&#8217;t feel<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">good. What does it feel like?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:11:24] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It&#8217;s soft because it feels like when I was a kid and my parents told me no.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:11:31] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Exactly.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:11:31] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And sometimes I just want to go out to dinner with my husband.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:11:36] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes. And yet you are telling me that in what you need to do is to be stricter and stick to your guns?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Look at the body language. Right? Look at that deep breath you&#8217;re taking being strict and sticking to<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">your guns. Sounds like you at Costco with your husband begging you to get a smoker. And you have to put<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">up this wall and be like, no, no, it&#8217;s almost like you&#8217;re being attacked. Left punch, right punch. What<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">if it felt easy? What would that look like?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:11:54] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I would know that we have enough money to go out and have Jersey Mike&#8217;s one Saturday a week when we&#8217;re<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">going grocery shopping.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:12:06] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Jeff, what would it look like and feel like if money was easy in your family?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:12:11] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Being able to plan more with the girls rather than, you know, canceling all of our plans.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:12:17] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You should be able to have some fun, no doubt about that. I want you to, but that cannot be the primary<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">thing that you are focusing on now, because nowhere in your descriptions did you talk about we should<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">automatically save money. We should know our debt payoff date. Our money should be going to our debt.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Aggressively. This is how many times a week we can eat out. And both of us respect it. It was just I want<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">to be able to spend more on stuff, which is the same thing that got you into this position in the first<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">place.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:12:43] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">No, I agree, it&#8217;s shifting. That mindset is it&#8217;s going to be hard, but it&#8217;s not unattainable.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:12:49] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The stakes here are very high. If you&#8217;re in your 20s and you accidentally don&#8217;t pay a credit card bill<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">one month and you rack up interest charges, it&#8217;s not great, but you could fix it. You have time. When you<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">get into your 40s, you need to be pretty dialed in. If they don&#8217;t change this dynamic, they will be in<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">severe debt. No housing options. It&#8217;s quite ominous to look 15 years down and see where they might be. So<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">my goal is to get them to break this habit and to build a vision together, which they&#8217;re both bought in<\/span><\/p>\n<ol>\n<li><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So I decided that I wanted to show them and to show you exactly what I would want. What would I do in<\/span><\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">their situation? I&#8217;m taking a structured approach, doing three things. Number one philosophy. Number two,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">develop money rules. Number three actually make some changes. And I&#8217;m going to do this fast. It would be<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">super easy instead to just be like okay, let&#8217;s like fiddle around the edges and cut the amount down that<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">you spend eating out. It&#8217;s going to do nothing. I would rather elevate them, and I hope maybe they reach<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">50% of it, 40%, 60%. But I want to show them what excellence looks like. That&#8217;s what I&#8217;m going to do.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is what I would do if I were in your situation. A philosophy around money that means something like<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">in our family, we save at least 10% of our net pay. That&#8217;s an example of a philosophy around money. In<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">our family. We have a no debt policy. That&#8217;s another example. What is a philosophy with money that each<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">of you want to begin. Starting immediately. Though, you&#8217;re debt free.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:14:29] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We are a debt free family.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:14:29] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I like that. Are you willing to make changes in order to support that philosophy?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:14:36] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes, I am<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:14:36] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">great. Michelle, are you willing to make changes to support that philosophy?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:14:41] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:14:41] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Great. What&#8217;s your philosophy. In this family?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:14:47] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We prioritize saving.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:14:47] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Love it. And what does that mean? Give me a number, a percentage. Typically I say 5 to 10% of net pay.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Let&#8217;s go in the middle of 7%. 7%. In this family, we saved 7% of net paid. Beautiful. Next, in this<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">family, we communicate about money. I love. That. You agree with that, Michelle.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:15:07] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes, yes,<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:15:07] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">that is powerful. We communicate. How often do we talk about money? Be specific.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:15:14] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Once a week.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:15:14] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Love it. Once a week. What day? What time? I share my own misery because I. I had a, um, rich life<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">review. It was like at 6 p.m. on a weekday. And like I kept on kicking the can down the road. My wife<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">actually told me like, dude, let&#8217;s be honest, you&#8217;re writing a book on money for couples and you&#8217;ve<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">missed the last two meetings. That was very embarrassing. But she was right. And I realized I was missing<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">him because I was tired at the end of the day and other meetings started encroaching. So what did I do? I<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">took a hard look in the mirror. I looked at what was going on. I realized this needs to be a priority. I<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">moved it to a 9 a.m. slot, so I&#8217;m not saying it has to be at 9 a.m., but I&#8217;m saying don&#8217;t give yourself a<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">way to fail. Set yourself up to fail.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:15:53] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Uh, I think we could commit to Sundays at 11:00 or after breakfast.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:16:00] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sunday, 11 a.m.. Does that work for you, Jeff?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:16:00] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, it works for me.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:16:00] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Um, I honestly think you have an amazing philosophy here. We are debt free. We prioritize saving 7%, and<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">we communicate about money once a week at Sunday at 11 a.m.. If you just did this, you could make radical<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">changes with your money. I think you&#8217;re doing amazing so far. That is a powerful philosophy. Now you can<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">have a philosophy and not yet be there. That&#8217;s okay. In this family we are debt free. Well, you&#8217;re not<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">debt free right now, but you can take steps to get there. That&#8217;s cool. Why am I starting with a<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">philosophy? And what the hell is a money philosophy? You know, a lot of us do not have a money<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">philosophy. And I can see it when I look at your spending because it&#8217;s sloppy. It&#8217;s spending money on<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">pickles. Oh, I bought some corn, and then I bought eight dogs. What makes no sense? There&#8217;s no cohesive<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">philosophy. But when I see somebody spending where they are spending a ton of money on traveling or on<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">their car or on their house, and they explain it to me. Here&#8217;s why. We love where we live. We have two<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">kids. We want to have a big space. It&#8217;s amazing. You have a philosophy. What I want you to do is start<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">off with your philosophy because it gives you a why. It makes it really easy to make decisions when, if<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">one partner or both say, hey, should we take this trip or should we buy this car? Whatever you look at<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">your philosophy go, is that important to us? Because in the moment you&#8217;re going to look at a shiny coat<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">of paint. Oh, I love it. So cool. But actually, look at your philosophy. I once went on a tour of the<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">expensive neighborhoods in LA. Okay, this is during Covid. There&#8217;s nothing to do. We drove to Bel Air.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Beautiful houses, 20 bed, 20 baths. You can only see through the shrubs. I&#8217;m looking at it like, oh, I<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">could live here. Bel air, so nice that your rich life. And then I got home and I was like, what the fuck?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">My philosophy is I love walkability. So for that moment I was like, enchanted by how cool these trees<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">looked. I come home like, I don&#8217;t really like that stuff. I don&#8217;t want to live up there in the hills. No.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Have a philosophy. Write it down. Next up. Rules. What are your rules? The things that if you do these,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">they are going to make you successful. We always save 10% and we increase that number every 1% every<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">December, etc. etc.. Third and last we go in and we fixed the numbers. I think most people just skip<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">right to the numbers. They do this all the time. On this show. I go, hey, what&#8217;s the problem? They go,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">well, we should cut down on a cell phone. Don&#8217;t drop your cell phone until you know why and what your<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">rules are. Otherwise, you&#8217;re just gonna pick something that&#8217;s gonna save you $15. And then next month,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">you&#8217;re going to go right back to it. You need to think methodically. If you&#8217;re sitting around fiddling in<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">a spreadsheet and you don&#8217;t even know what the problem is, you have taken a very wrong turn. Join my rich<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">life program. I&#8217;m gonna put the link. I am 100 K, learn how to think like this. Or just watch this show<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and do it every single week. All right, back to the show. What kind of money rules can we create?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:18:49] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We run a numbers before any purchase.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:18:49] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay, great. We run the numbers. What&#8217;s next?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:18:54] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Don&#8217;t try to manipulate Michelle.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:18:54] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That&#8217;s a great one. I like that you&#8217;re saying these out loud because you can actually print them out, put<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">them on the fridge, make a little index card. And if something happens, why don&#8217;t. You can pull it out.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hey, wait a minute. Are you violating rule number three? Ah, come on, we both agreed. It becomes a fun<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">thing. Money should be fun, even if it&#8217;s tough times. Great. What else? Hey, how about eating out?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:19:13] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Reduce it down to no more than twice a month.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:19:19] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I was going to say once a month, with a limit of no more than $75.70.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:19:19] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">$5 per month eating out. That includes coffee, that includes pizza that includes gas station stops,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">whatever. All of the above 75. So that&#8217;s basically one meal. Yes. And from looking at where you order,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">it&#8217;s Jersey Mike&#8217;s or Domino&#8217;s type of place. Right.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:19:37] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:19:37] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Are we on board with that?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:19:44] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:19:44] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay. Just to give you some perspective, do you know how much you spent on eating out this year? It&#8217;s<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">August.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:19:49] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Well, I mean, considering that in that one month was $900, I&#8217;m thinking we&#8217;re close to six grand.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:19:56] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Six grand. Let&#8217;s take a look at monarch. What&#8217;s this number? Right here. $9,275.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:20:00] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That was one heck of a burger.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:20:00] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We&#8217;re not even at the end of the year yet. In this family, we eat out once a month for $75. I think it&#8217;s<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">incredibly powerful. I think it&#8217;s amazing, actually. I&#8217;m really pleased. I think that&#8217;s awesome. I<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">actually think it gives you a lot to look forward to every month. All right. Final thing we&#8217;re going to<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">do here, we got some rules. We run the numbers before any purchase. We don&#8217;t try to manipulate Michelle.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We limit eating out to $75 a month. All this feels good. We&#8217;re going to now make some changes to the<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">actual CSP. Jeff, it&#8217;s up to you. I want you to get us below 60%.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:20:33] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Uh, our cell phone bill can come down to<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:20:40] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">what?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:20:40] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think it was, like, $200 off of that.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:20:40] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What, did it drop to 85?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:20:46] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:20:46] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What&#8217;s next?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:20:46] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Uh, so subscriptions again. We&#8217;ve been working on that. And I mean, I think we can take $50 off of that<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:20:52] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">watch. The number went from 85% to 85%. No change. Got to think bigger, Jeff.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:20:59] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Groceries. I think that&#8217;s our next biggest expenditure.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:20:59] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yep. Michel, if they&#8217;re looking at it, how can we bring that down to 15?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:21:06] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think we can do 15.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:21:13] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">How often do you all shop out? Go for grocery shopping.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:21:13] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Once a week.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:21:13] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They do Costco once a month, but then we do once a week. We do Safeway, WinCo, and Walmart because we<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">shop the ads and shop sale. Shop clearance.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:21:25] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Do you shop to a number? Michelle.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:21:25] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Right now? No.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:21:32] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah. Nobody does.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:21:32] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We have been cutting back on what we used to spend.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:21:32] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Look, let me just be blunt. $2,000 a month is just too much for a couple that&#8217;s in debt. Can we aim for<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">1500?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:21:39] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:21:39] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Drops to 80%. Okay. That&#8217;s a big difference. What else? The miscellaneous uncategorized spending.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:21:52] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes. $100.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:21:52] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Great. We took it down to 76%.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:21:52] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What was it, 300. I don&#8217;t see us spending $300 a month on the pets. I think we could drop that down to<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">path. So 150.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:22:06] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Make it 200. I also think having eight pets is something you should think about.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:22:06] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Our pets, our kids. We can&#8217;t get rid of our kids, so we can&#8217;t get rid of our pets.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:22:12] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Boy, you&#8217;re talking the wrong guy about that. And that&#8217;s fine. That is fine. We all. We all have our own<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">rich life. Fine. What else? I want to show you something. We need to not get stuck. We need to keep<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">moving. Savings account. I just want to point out, you currently have $571 in savings. If one of you gets<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">in an accident or there&#8217;s a some kind of repair that needs to happen, there is no place for the money to<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">come from. You will simply rack up more debt, and you&#8217;ll just end up in the same place you&#8217;ve been for<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">the last two decades. Therefore, we need to move money to savings. So right now you have $150 going,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">which is good. Let&#8217;s add $750 because that was about 7%, $750 just automatically going into your savings<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">account, never to be touched except in an emergency. That&#8217;s great. You still have $7,752 for guilt free<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">spending.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:23:03] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That&#8217;s too much.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:23:10] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah. You know, I. We calculated some of your math. And by the time you retire. Michelle, on the current<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">trajectory you&#8217;re on, you&#8217;ll have about $117,000 in retirement. What do you think about that?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:23:22] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I know that&#8217;s not enough.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:23:22] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, that would give you about $4,700 a year.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:23:22] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:23:29] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I mean, you two would be living on Social Security. No house. What do you think would happen?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:23:29] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">End up living with their kids?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:23:34] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes. That is the track that you are on right now. That is the track. Nothing we have done has changed<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">that. Jeff, it looks like you&#8217;re having a moment of realization. Am I reading that right?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:23:46] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I&#8217;m just. Yeah, it is weird. We&#8217;re still in that. We&#8217;re overspending and under earning.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:23:52] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes. When are you going to be debt free? Do you know.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:23:52] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Like seven years for the credit card piece? At least I didn&#8217;t even put in student loans.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:23:58] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Need to pay that off faster. Let me show you. You have $1,752. That&#8217;s just not going to work anymore. We<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">need to put an extra Payment towards your debt. If I were me an extra 500 and I might put 500 in<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">investments because you need to invest. You see how I&#8217;m starting to split this money?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:24:16] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:24:16] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You&#8217;ll actually feel incredibly empowered when you do this. And then the two of you can decide in your<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sunday 11 a.m. meetings. Hey, I think we have an extra 100 bucks. Where should we put it? I think it<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">should go to investments. I think it should go to debt. Well, tell me a little bit about why you think<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">that. Because I&#8217;ll tell you a little bit about why I think that. And then let&#8217;s come to a decision.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That&#8217;s how healthy money conversations happen.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:24:41] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think we have that conversation too. And that&#8217;s what pushed. She pushed me to look for a new job that<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">makes more. I&#8217;ve been in the same job for 13 years.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:24:53] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I would love that. Could you do that?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:24:53] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah. Um, with my skills right now, I was we were looking at the 130,000 compared to the 90 I&#8217;m making<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">now.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:25:00] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That would. Be. Game changing.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:25:07] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And Michelle is looking.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:25:07] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah. Michelle&#8217;s also looking at something that would double her take home. Now if one of you does that<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">it will be transformational. If two of you do that and you follow a plan like this, it will be earth<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">shattering for the trajectory of you and for your kids. Earth shattering. It is simply the biggest<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">possible thing you could do. Second to following this plan, but if you do not follow this plan and you go<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and make an extra 50 or 100 K, it doesn&#8217;t matter because you&#8217;ll just spend it all. The plan is what<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">matters, the connection between the two of you. It is what makes it possible.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:25:43] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If we have a solid game plan and a solid list of rules that we can follow without, you know, feeling that<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">it&#8217;s it&#8217;s taking away.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:25:56] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Great.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:25:56] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In order for this to work, I need to ask for help. I need to shrug off the eldest grandchild,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">granddaughter or daughter persona and involve Jeff in the conversation and the planning. And it is a path<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">forward, actually is possible, and it doesn&#8217;t seem as insane or scary as I&#8217;ve thought.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:26:17] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes, if you could go back in time and see Michelle in 2010, what would you tell her?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:26:24] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I would tell her that she needs to get Jeff more involved. She needs to share the responsibility and make<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">sure she&#8217;s not the only one that knows what bills there are and what needs to be paid. So she&#8217;s not the<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">only one that&#8217;s worrying about it at night.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:26:43] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Nice. And what if that Michelle from 2010 said, yeah, but it&#8217;s easier for me to do it because I don&#8217;t<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">trust Jeff.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:26:50] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It&#8217;s not going to be easy. Or in 15 years it&#8217;s going to be more stressful and it&#8217;s better to build that<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Have it now. Then go through 15 years of worrying about going up to the register and whether your card&#8217;s<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">going to clear.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:27:09] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That&#8217;s honest. I really appreciate that. Do you think you would give yourself the same advice today?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:27:16] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, I recognize that Jeff needs to be a part of it. It&#8217;s hard to let go because I want to control and I<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">want to know that things are going to be okay, but I recognize that it needs to happen.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:27:29] Ramit:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Cool. I always believe that people can change, and I think there will be some change here with Michelle<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and Jeff. I think that Michelle hopefully feels validated, that there are some real issues here, and I<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">hope that she feels challenged and encouraged, that she can learn more and develop her skill. I hope that<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Jeff follows through. I really want him to speak to some medical professionals and see what, if anything,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">might be available to him. I think that once you have a relationship dynamic that has solidified concrete<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">ized, it&#8217;s really, really challenging. So I&#8217;m wishing them the best. I know change is possible at all<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">levels, all ages, all scenarios. It just becomes harder over time. I want to give a huge thank you to our<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">partners at monarch. You are now making it possible for us to take the CSP and for me to dive in to the<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">transaction level. So many awesome insights here. Here we find that this couple spent $9,000 this year<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">eating out. That&#8217;s actually immensely shocking and useful to know you can do the same thing using<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">monarch.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:28:51] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hear me? So first, I want to thank you and the entire team for the opportunity and for taking the time to<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">work through all of this with us. It was extremely helpful and honestly, it was a conversation we really<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">needed to have. My biggest takeaway was that I need to learn to speak up more when it comes to finances,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and it&#8217;s okay for me to push Jeff to be more involved instead of feeling like I have to carry it all for<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">myself. I also realized we&#8217;re not our parents. We&#8217;re not in the same financial situation they were in,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and we don&#8217;t have to carry the same beliefs or issues with money. We have the ability to save, invest,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">get out of debt and build something different for our family. We&#8217;re not trapped. We didn&#8217;t end up making<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">a few adjustments to the budget to make it more realistic, but we do have a concrete plan now. We are on<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">track to have one of our debts paid off fully within the next three months, and then have the goal of<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">having our personal loan taken care of within the next 16. And then as things get paid off, we&#8217;re going<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">to roll that into other debts to get those paid off faster. We&#8217;ve also agreed that when and if our<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">salaries increase, we&#8217;re not going to let our lifestyles automatically increase with them. We want to put<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">that extra money towards savings and investments instead. And I guess last thing, if there&#8217;s anybody<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">watching who thinks saving isn&#8217;t for me or investing is only for rich people, I want you to know that it<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">is for you. You don&#8217;t have to make millions of dollars. You can start where you are with what you have<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and build from there. Even if it&#8217;s just $10. And I think that&#8217;s probably the biggest thing I&#8217;m walking<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">away with feeling like we can actually do this. Thanks again.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:30:24] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So right off the bat, but one of the surprises was not knowing where our money was going, how was being<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">spent. Just because I was afraid I was. I had anxiety over spending and just relied on Michelle to to do<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">all the burden to, you know, to deal with the impact of my spending. And a lot of times, you know, you<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">know, how she felt and putting her in a position of where she had to be the parent because of my impulse<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">buying and lack of long term thinking. My biggest takeaway I need to change my behavior so we can change<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">the way we approach money together. Having that conversation, regardless of it, makes me anxious or not<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">learning more about financial planning. And it also means communicating more openly about what we want<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">for our future to look like. Specific changes. As we discussed, we, you know, started we scheduled that<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">that, you know, the Sunday&#8217;s meetings to to set up goals to look at our monthly plan. We looked it over<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">in our short term debt management. We were able to restructure and pay off a large loan within 16. You<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">know, within the next three months, and then take that and then put it towards one of the bigger bills,<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">treating that money as if we never had it because it&#8217;s going to pay our bills. I believe that&#8217;s our our<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">biggest change is just being able to sit down and talk to each other, um, openly and having that<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">conversation that we&#8217;ve been avoiding just because we were afraid. And the goal is, again, is to break<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">that cycle. Talk to our kids about debt management, about not getting into debt. Plan for your future.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Um, again, we&#8217;re not our parents. Um, we want to be better. We want to show our kids what it means to be<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">financially responsible. Amen.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:32:14] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Team. You guys wanted to know what the biggest things that stuck with us since we talked about a month<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">ago? Um, and for me, it&#8217;s that it&#8217;s okay to speak up about everything. I don&#8217;t have to quietly take<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">responsibility of things and really shouldn&#8217;t avoid the conversations just because I think they&#8217;re going<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">to be uncomfortable.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:32:31] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">For me, it was asking more questions, taking ownership of our finances, and knowing that we&#8217;re a team and<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">not letting Michelle just take the burden of it all and expect that it&#8217;s just going to be magic.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:32:41] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I&#8217;ve also learned that sometimes you just have to pull the trigger. The plan is never going to be perfect<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">the first time, and that&#8217;s okay. But spending forever trying to get the details right isn&#8217;t the way to<\/span><\/p>\n<ol>\n<li><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The only way to know if it&#8217;s going to work is to try it. So this the way we did this this month, was<\/span><\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">to take our paychecks and automatically move it to retirement savings and extra debt payments so we can<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">get that down. This happens before we even get to touch it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:33:07] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yep.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:33:07] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And we also have a new income stream that&#8217;s going to be starting soon. And we&#8217;ve already decided where<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">that money is going. Uh, we&#8217;re also trying to use our bank accounts a little more intentionally. We&#8217;ve<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">got one for bills, one for groceries, and one for everything else we might have forgot about. And we know<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">this is our first month, and we know it&#8217;s going to be trial and error. But that&#8217;s the nice thing. It&#8217;s we<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">learn as we go and we can use it. You know what didn&#8217;t work this month? We could try it out next month.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:33:37] Jeff:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yep. So you know what? Thank you again for the opportunity and the direction you gave us. It&#8217;s really<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">helped. And I think we both feel like there&#8217;s big things ahead of us.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[01:33:48] Michelle:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Thank you guys.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<p><script async src=\"https:\/\/platform.twitter.com\/widgets.js\" charset=\"utf-8\"><\/script><script async src=\"\/\/www.instagram.com\/embed.js\"><\/script><br \/>\n<br \/> <br \/><a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/283-we-have-3-kids-and-live-paycheck-to-paycheck-are-we-screwed\/\">Source link <\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>\ufeff\ufeff\ufeff\ufeff\ufeff\ufeff\ufeff\ufeff\ufeff\ufeff\ufeff\ufeff\ufeff \ufeff\ufeff\ufeff\ufeff\ufeff\ufeff\ufeff Ramit digs into how years of impulse spending, money avoidance, and unequal financial responsibility have left a couple earning around $178,000 a year [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":352049,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[4557],"tags":[17692,42052,7139,42053,218,42055,42054,1108,545,4022,42051],"class_list":["post-367695","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-marketing","tag-accountant","tag-apollo-13","tag-cincinnati","tag-gerber-life-company-llc","tag-insurance-coverage","tag-insurance-coverage-plan","tag-monetary-therapist","tag-ohio","tag-physician","tag-therapist","tag-western-southern"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.etrafficlane.com\/60dollarmiracle\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/367695","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.etrafficlane.com\/60dollarmiracle\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.etrafficlane.com\/60dollarmiracle\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.etrafficlane.com\/60dollarmiracle\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.etrafficlane.com\/60dollarmiracle\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=367695"}],"version-history":[{"count":2,"href":"https:\/\/www.etrafficlane.com\/60dollarmiracle\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/367695\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":367697,"href":"https:\/\/www.etrafficlane.com\/60dollarmiracle\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/367695\/revisions\/367697"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.etrafficlane.com\/60dollarmiracle\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/352049"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.etrafficlane.com\/60dollarmiracle\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=367695"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.etrafficlane.com\/60dollarmiracle\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=367695"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.etrafficlane.com\/60dollarmiracle\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=367695"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}