{"id":320004,"date":"2025-04-08T05:50:29","date_gmt":"2025-04-08T10:50:29","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.etrafficlane.com\/60dollarmiracle\/episode-200-should-we-pay-off-our-massive-debt-or-invest-more"},"modified":"2025-04-08T05:52:27","modified_gmt":"2025-04-08T10:52:27","slug":"episode-200-should-we-pay-off-our-massive-debt-or-invest-more","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.etrafficlane.com\/60dollarmiracle\/episode-200-should-we-pay-off-our-massive-debt-or-invest-more","title":{"rendered":"Episode #200: \u201cOught to we repay our large debt? Or make investments extra?\u201d"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><\/p>\n<div readability=\"2534.26921928\">\n<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"\u201cShould we pay off our massive debt? Or invest more?\u201d\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/9yr_r9eLcKc\" width=\"100%\" height=\"400\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>Wilson (46) and Shannon (35) have built a strong financial foundation\u2014owning a vacation rental, maxing out Roth IRAs, and earning solid incomes.<\/p>\n<p>But when it comes to their next move, they\u2019re at odds. Wilson wants to tap into their home equity to invest in stocks, believing they\u2019re too heavily weighted in real estate. Shannon, more risk-averse, worries about adding debt when they already owe $129K on their home, plus tax and student loans.<\/p>\n<p>Can they align on a strategy that balances security with growth?<\/p>\n<p>This episode is brought to you by:<\/p>\n<p>Gelt | Get a more premium, proactive tax strategy to optimize and file your taxes at\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/joingelt.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/joingelt.com\/ramit<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p>Wildgrain | Get $30 off the first box \u2013 PLUS free Croissants in every box at\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/wildgrain.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/wildgrain.com\/ramit<\/a><\/p>\n<p>Superhuman | Get a free month of lightning fast email at\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/try.sprh.mn\/ramitsethi\">https:\/\/try.sprh.mn\/ramitsethi<\/a><\/p>\n<p>DeleteMe | If you want to get your personal information removed from the web, go to\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/joindeleteme.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/joindeleteme.com\/ramit<\/a>\u00a0for 20% off.<\/p>\n<p>Facet | For Money for Couples listeners who enroll with Facet, they will waive the $250 enrollment fee for new annual members and they\u2019ll add $500 into your brokerage account when you invest and maintain $5000 in the first 90 days of membership for Core, Plus and Complete members (promo does not apply to Foundations members). Check out their membership options at\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/facet.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/facet.com\/ramit<\/a><\/p>\n<h2><strong>Links mentioned in this episode<\/strong><\/h2>\n<h2><strong>Show Transcript<\/strong><\/h2>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/drive.google.com\/file\/d\/1sYNL4zwkX-_Z8BH2tJuNNNz1_JBVkZ5u\/view?usp=sharing\">Download the full transcript PDF<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you feel like you currently have a weight on your shoulders?<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:04]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. When it comes to money, definitely. It feels heavy. It feels a little bit suffocating.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:09]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0I took the big risk of not making money for six years hoping to be successful.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:15]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0The question is about Wilson wanting to take out a second mortgage on the house to put more money into stocks. What the hell?<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:25]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0This isn\u2019t a blanket approach that you can ask ChatGPT or something and say, should I take out a second mortgage? No. You need to know exactly the details.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why do you sound angry when you say it? Watching your energy just now. I\u2019m feeling attacked, and I don\u2019t even understand what the [Bleep] you\u2019re talking about. All I know is you\u2019re yelling at me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:47]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0There\u2019s emotional things that come up, and it\u2019s hard on me too, to be honest. We just talk about the doom and gloom of everything.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you see how the two of you don\u2019t agree on the debt? How can you row to a certain destination when the two of you don\u2019t even agree what the destination is?<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re\u00a0going to\u00a0get to the show in just a second, but I have to share that today is a big milestone for the Money for Couples podcast. This is our 200th episode, and I\u00a0want to\u00a0give a huge thank you to every single one of you, all the listeners who join this podcast every single week to hear and watch these incredible stories.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:23]\u00a0I started this podcast because,\u00a0like a lot of you, I had questions on how to have healthy money conversations with my wife, and now 200 episodes later here we all are.\u00a0So a huge thank you to every couple who\u2019s been brave enough to reach out for help and to talk publicly about what is one of the most intimate things there can be,\u00a0their personal finances.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:48]\u00a0And thank you to you for coming back every single week to hear and to watch these stories.\u00a0If you enjoy this podcast, I would love it if you click Follow or\u00a0Subscribe, whether it\u2019s Apple, Spotify, YouTube, because\u00a0it helps me and my team grow this show and make every episode better and better.\u00a0Thank you again for supporting Money for Couples.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:11]\u00a0I\u2019m about to open Shannon and Wilson\u2019s Conscious Spending Plan, which breaks down their net worth,\u00a0income,\u00a0and where they spend their money.\u00a0You can download your own free template of the Conscious Spending Plan at iwt.com\/csp.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:25]\u00a0Let\u2019s take a look at the numbers and then I\u2019ve\u00a0got to\u00a0tell you about their application.\u00a0Assets,\u00a0$1.6 million.\u00a0Investments, $305,000.\u00a0Savings,\u00a00.\u00a0Debt, $247,000,\u00a0for a total net worth of $1.68 million. Okay, but listen to this; in the application, she writes,\u00a0\u201cMy husband wants to take more risky financial decisions when it comes to investing\u00a0while I\u2019m more interested in making slow and steady decisions.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:55]\u00a0\u201cHe thinks I\u2019m\u00a0\u2018too conservative and frugal,\u2019\u00a0while I think he is a bit of a dreamer and optimizer. We\u2019re also 10 years apart, and my husband has said that he feels he doesn\u2019t have as much time as I do, which is why he wants to make these aggressive financial decisions.\u00a0It feels like he\u2019s trying to catch up for lost time.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:14]\u00a0Their combined gross monthly income, $13,916 a month, and their take home is 11,600. Fixed costs at 76%.\u00a0That\u2019s too high. Investments are at 13%. Wow. That\u2019s post-tax. That\u2019s $1,520 a month. Okay. That\u2019s interesting. Savings are at 22%. That\u2019s interesting. That\u2019s $500 a month for vacations,\u00a0$100 a month for gifts,\u00a0$2,000 a month for a long-term emergency fund,\u00a0which is interesting because their emergency fund right now, oh, it\u2019s at zero. All\u00a0right,\u00a0makes a lot of sense.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:57]\u00a0That\u2019s probably Shannon who\u2019s saying we need money in savings.\u00a0That\u2019s my guess. And then, oh, their guilt-free spending is negative 11%. So basically,\u00a0they\u2019re spending too much.\u00a0As we can see, that\u2019s not true\u00a0because I guarantee they are not spending negative $1,280 a month. So I have a lot to understand when it comes to Shannon and Wilson.\u00a0Looking forward to talking to them.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Shannon, do you remember exactly where you were and what you were doing when you decided to apply for this podcast?<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:28]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0It was a few months ago, and we had just had a finance conversation, which was around managing debt and equity. We were at our apartment in Brooklyn, and we bought a house and put a lot of money into that. And now we\u2019re at a stage where it\u2019s like, okay, what are our next steps? Are we saving? Are we investing?<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:48]\u00a0And Wilson has expressed that he would like to have less invested in the house because we did a lot in cash and to move it over to stocks and that kind of thing. And we have a bit of debt in different things, and that makes me feel uncomfortable and emotional, to be quite honest.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:09]\u00a0And I feel like we\u2019re just at a point where we both have a different opinion of where things should go, and ultimately, he wants to get the data approach, but I also think that there are things that, your peace of mind, that aren\u2019t driven by the numbers.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Who usually brings up money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:27]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Shannon brings up spending, probably. I bring up investing more. I have come to realize that we both approach these issues differently, and my experience has been, I love my wife to death, but sometimes the emotional part of something comes out first, rather than the clear picture of really what the bottom line is. And I think sometimes I get caught off guard by that because we don\u2019t have all the pieces of the data points to really know our baseline. And so it can be challenging.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You said words like \u201cthe bottom line\u201d. You said words like \u201cdata\u201d. Just so I understand, would you say with your money that you\u2019re data-driven?<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:21]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0For the most part, yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Great. And would you say that having an emotional perspective with money is the opposite of being data-driven?<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:30]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I think that\u2019s fair. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, cool. Got it. I think I\u2019m understanding where you\u2019re coming from. Shannon, would you agree that you tend to lead with emotions when it comes to money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:43]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I think it\u2019s hard not to \u200abecause there\u2019s lived experience, family, cultural differences.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I agree. In fact, even the fact of showing emotions is cultural, is gender based, is geographical. There\u2019s so many different ways of it. So I agree with you. \u200aAll right, so Shannon, you bring up a topic. And then Shannon, what did you say after he agreed to talk?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:08]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I would ideally like to pay down the debt that we have. Aside from our mortgage, we have a couple of different debt lanes, and I would love to clear some of them out altogether or focus on the one that has the highest interest rate.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So you say, \u201cI want to pay off the debt.\u201d And then what\u2019s his reaction?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:26]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I want to buy NVIDIA. I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0A video?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:32]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0No, NVIDIA, the stock.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, I see. You want to pay off debt. He wants to invest more.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:37]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, okay. I understand. And so he says, why are we going to pay off debt? We can get better returns with this stock that\u2019s going up. Okay. And what\u2019s your reaction to that, Shannon? Notice her deep breath. Look at that deep breath. What is that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:55]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I am a very emotional person, so I\u2019m just warning you I will likely cry. Honestly\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Second deep breath. Can we pause right here?<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u00a0just\u00a0want to\u00a0cut in quickly to explain why I\u2019m pausing this conversation right now,\u00a0even though we just got started.\u00a0It\u2019s common for couples to come on this podcast and they often feel like they have to put it all out there immediately. It\u2019s almost like when you shake a bottle of soda and then you pop the lid and it just comes pouring out. And I think that\u2019s what\u2019s happening here.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:26]\u00a0I can tell that Shannon is visibly breathing,\u00a0heavily, and that\u2019s a major clue. She\u2019s having a physical reaction to what we\u2019re talking about.\u00a0And for me, that\u2019s a big stop sign. We have to stop. We have to slow things down. We have to figure out what\u2019s going on here because until we address that, it\u2019s not even clear if she can hear what I am saying.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:46]\u00a0And the greatest thing about this podcast is that my guests and I have the ultimate luxury of time. Now,\u00a0I know that if I push her now, she\u2019s not going to hear what I\u2019m saying. So I\u2019m\u00a0going to\u00a0stop. I\u2019m\u00a0going to\u00a0slow things down. I\u2019m\u00a0going to\u00a0see if we can reset this energy in a positive way.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I suspect that you\u2019re taking a deep breath because it\u2019s quite overwhelming when you think about that next part of that conversation. Am I reading that correctly?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:14]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, \u200abecause I feel like paying off debt gives me peace of mind. And for me that\u2019s worth more than a few points in interest that you can make on something.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. And so the deep breaths, the feeling of inability to breathe, what does that represent to you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:37]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Anxiety. We\u2019re two people, but we have joined lives. When you have just a difference of opinion, how do you find something that makes both people feel comfortable and safe and secure?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I love the question you just raised. You are two separate people. Culturally, you\u2019re different. Have you found another area of life where you both are on the same page, even though you\u2019re different people?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:03]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0We both want a family. We both love our families and enjoy spending time with them.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:11]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0We both love to travel. We both love to eat.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. And picking any one of those, whichever one\u2019s most meaningful to you, what does it feel like when you\u2019re both aligned?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:20]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0It feels like we\u2019re a team. We can get pleasure out of things, enjoyment, fulfillment.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, cool. Wilson, how about for you? How does it feel when the two of you are finding commonality in those?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:36]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0We feel connected. I feel understood.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:40]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel like I\u2019m understanding Shannon. There is a vivaciousness to everything, to our voice. We\u2019re holding hands. We\u2019re just super connected and aligned.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow. I love that. I love your description too\u2013 connected, vivacious. These are very positive, vivid words. There\u2019s something really special about being connected with your partner. We all have different words, but overall it feels really good. So I love knowing that the two of you have areas of life where you feel that way. My goal is to help you find the path from food and family to feel the same thing with money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:28]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0I like that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Awesome. Okay. \u200aAll right. So you have cultural differences. You view money differently. I understand. This is common, very common. When was the first time that you seriously talked about money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:44]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I would say we first started to have serious conversations around money when we moved in together, because then we had joint expenses, we got a joint credit card, and we\u2019re budgeting because we spend differently and that kind of stuff.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:57]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Like our second date, we were out to dinner and I was like, \u201cI think I need some milk for my coffee in the morning.\u201d And she\u2019s like, \u201cAll right, we\u2019ll go to the Bodega right here.\u201d And so I was like, \u201cI don\u2019t have any money.\u201d And so we walk in and she\u2019s like, \u201cOh, I have some money.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:15]\u00a0So I got one of those small milks, a 16-ounce milk or whatever, $1.35 or something. Handed over. Shannon gives me $2. I hand the $2 to the Bodega cashier. He hands me back 65 cents and I was just going to go about my way, and Shannon says, \u201cCan I have a receipt, please?\u201d And I would turn to her and I was like, \u201cWhy do you need a receipt for $1.35?\u201d She\u2019s like, \u201cOh, it goes on my spreadsheet.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:48]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0And I was absolutely amazed. I was amazed how diligent she was with tracking her expenses.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I like that. Shannon, what do you remember about that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:00]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I enjoy tracking finances and talking about it and budgeting and that kind of stuff. So for me, it just seemed normal.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Today, if we fast forward, how often do the two of you talk about money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:16]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I think it\u2019s probably every couple of months.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And at what time does this conversation typically happen?<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:24]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I think usually on a Sunday morning.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, wow. I\u2019m pleasantly surprised. So you talk about money every month or two, and how do you currently track your finances?<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:36]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>It\u2019s a spreadsheet with a Notion page. Variable charges, fixed charges. What\u2019s the debt?<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Who maintains this monstrosity?<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:45]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s interesting. Shannon, do you access this set of documents? Do you log in? Do you look at them?<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:53]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I sometimes feel it\u2019s a little too complicated to maintain with formulas and that kind of stuff. So I don\u2019t feel, for me, it\u2019s super usable.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Y\u2019all very good at describing a lot of details. Can I just ask you guys a simple question? Is it working?<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:12]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0No. Not for me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:15]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. If it\u2019s not working for one of you, it\u2019s not working for both. Do you all see that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:19]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You can have the most sophisticated system. It can be recurring. It can be variable. It can be automated. If it\u2019s not working, even for one, it\u2019s not working. Okay, that\u2019s okay. We\u2019re just trying to discover what\u2019s going on. The good news is misery loves company, and you should know that almost nobody has a system that works for them.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:40]\u00a0So you\u2019re in good company. And the even better news is I happen to know something about making a system that actually works. So it\u2019s not surprising to me, but I do like understanding, putting all those details aside, does this work? And the answer seems to be no. You own a property in New York that you sometimes rent out. Is that correct?<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:05]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s a two family. One unit is rented long-term. The other unit is short-term, or we live here when it\u2019s not.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. And then you rent your current place in Brooklyn. Is that right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:17]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. We don\u2019t own it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I would like to understand better how your conversations about money go. So what I would like to do is to go back in time and I\u2019d like to hear an example from the last six months where the two of you were not on the same page with money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:37]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. So we want to go on vacation in the summertime, and we live between the city and Upstate, and so one place would always be rented and ideally our dog, Luna, would stay at our place Upstate. And Will, I think you want to ideally be able to rent both places so that we can make money off of the house instead of paying for Luna to have a dog sitter, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:05]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes and no. I really want to figure out what the numbers are so we can have a educated decision.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s it? That\u2019s how the conversation goes?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:16]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0To be honest, this is the classic. Shannon might think I want to do something, but we\u2019re in the dark because we don\u2019t have all the pieces and then there\u2019s emotional things that come up. And it\u2019s hard on me too, to be honest. It is hard on me because I haven\u2019t really made up my mind. I\u2019m just trying to get to this kernel of truth so I can make up my mind.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. How long does it usually take for you two to make a decision? Short or long?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:44]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Long.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Long means a week, a month, or several months?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:50]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel like it\u2019s usually several months.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:52]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0I think it depends. The idea of going to Europe and getting a dog sitter. And I just spoke to her today, so hopefully I have an idea in the next two weeks. So six to eight weeks.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. So eight weeks. And this is the decision about pet sitting and traveling? Am I hearing that correctly?<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:11]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Do you all feel fine about that, taking eight weeks to make this decision?<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:17]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0No, I\u2019d like to have a discussion around it and then say, okay, this is the game plan and this is what we\u2019re going to do.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, we\u2019re all here. Should we just have that discussion right now?<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:26]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Sure.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:27]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I would like to go to Europe and ideally, I would like to just have Luna stay at the house. I\u2019m okay with not making extra money on it for the peace of mind, knowing that she\u2019s taken care of. She\u2019s in her home. She\u2019s comfortable.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:42]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0We have a chance to meet this dog boarder who is highly recommended from our dog trainer. And we have somebody who wants to rent our place for a month for a lot of money. And for me, I just really want to get what the answer is for how much we would make if we do feel Luna would be in a good environment, and then we can make that decision.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:09]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel good about that. I would just like to make that decision and then just move forward. I would be okay with that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:17]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Once we know that, here\u2019s my credit card. Let\u2019s book the trip, go to Europe.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. How do you both feel about that conversation?<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:27]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel good. I guess my only hesitancy is that we\u2019ll say that we\u2019ll make the decision in a week and then when it comes to make the decision, then it gets pushed.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So if you feel skeptical about your partner\u2019s ability or your joint ability to make decisions about money, how does that make you feel?<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:49]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0It makes me feel uneasy.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:52]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I think it taps into not feeling safe and secure. If you know you\u2019re good with your money, if you\u2019re having productive conversations around money, for me, that translates to feeling safe and secure.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Okay. I understand that. But that\u2019s not a feeling I have about money. In fact, when my wife and I sat down with a therapist and he asked us, \u201cWhat does money represent to us?\u201d My answer was so fast. I was like, \u201cGrowth, numbers, compounding, growth.\u201d And my wife looked up and said, \u201cSafety\u201d. I looked at her like, what? What\u2019s that word? And so I didn\u2019t understand exactly what she meant. It took me a while to understand that. What does it mean to you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:39]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Being able to pay bills without having to think about it. Having ease with money. Having it freely without having to worry if we have to pay rent, pay mortgage, debt payments, that kind of thing. And being able to spend money on the things that we want to spend money on rather than the things that we have to spend money on.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So as an adult, you\u2019ve been worrying about money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:04]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes, I\u2019m conscious of it. I\u2019m aware of it. I don\u2019t like how much debt that we have. I understand everybody has a different threshold of what they\u2019re comfortable with, and that\u2019s where we differ too. We are comfortable with different levels of debt.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hearing Shannon and Wilson talk, it\u2019s becoming clear to me that they have very different views of money.\u00a0Shannon uses words like uneasy, safe, and secure. And Wilson uses data-driven words like data points, information,\u00a0bottom line.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:37]\u00a0We are not rational about money,\u00a0and the people who believe they are data-driven often lie to themselves. They\u2019re telling themselves a story.\u00a0They hide behind logic. The challenge today is for me to get Wilson to see that his need for data is putting unnecessary pressure on his marriage,\u00a0and not just financially.\u00a0But I can\u2019t lead with that. I have to first understand what\u2019s going on to make sure that I can get to the crux of the issue.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:05]\u00a0We\u2019re\u00a0going to\u00a0hear more after this short break.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:09]\u00a0Welcome back. Let\u2019s keep going.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What role do each of you play in your finances?<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:15]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Because I work with data, it does make sense that I gather everything and get it into a sheet or something so that we can look at it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. Okay. And you, Shannon, what\u2019s your role?<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:26]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Maybe I\u2019m the teller or the bank manager.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So they\u2019re moving money from here to there, checking on the account to see the balance, that kind of thing?<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:35]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What does it mean that the very role you, yourself, chose for yourself not that significant in terms of managing personal finances?<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:45]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm. Maybe it\u2019s redundant. Maybe I\u2019m managing things that I don\u2019t necessarily have to.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. You\u2019re playing small. I hate seeing people play small. I especially hate that the situation you are describing is very common with women in relationships, and it drives me insane. You will often see this dynamic, and it goes like this. The man will go, \u201cOh, I do the big picture, the investment stuff, and she manages the day-to-day.\u201d I go, \u201c[Bleep], not again.\u201d I hate to see it. I\u2019m on a quest to get everybody to live a Rich Life, to focus on the things that matter, the 30,000-dollar questions, not the 3-dollar ones. Do you think you\u2019re playing small?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:32]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I never thought about it like that, but I\u2019d have to sit with it for a little bit before I can perceive it, I guess.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0But if you sat with it right now and you realize, wow, I\u2019ve been spending the last X years the majority of my time with money focusing on tracking $1 and 60-cent expenses, or reconciling this spreadsheet, which is so hard to use anyway, what might it mean about your relationship with money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:04]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I guess if we were able to come to a consensus on how to handle certain things, we wouldn\u2019t really have to think about those smaller things.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:15]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. You would not have to talk about every tiny detail. And when you talk about every tiny detail, it stops you from focusing on the important stuff, the big picture stuff. But also, it stops you from connecting on a more meaningful level because you will find yourself, I\u2019m talking about both of you by the way, getting dragged back into the weeds.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:39]\u00a0You\u2019re desperately trying to make an important decision for your Rich Life, but yet you find yourself delaying for eight weeks talking about a dog sitter. Better to make those decisions in December of last year. Like, how much do we want to set aside for the dog sitter? Let\u2019s just make a line item. Then when it comes to this, you don\u2019t have to sit around and wait for two months. That\u2019s playing big, when y\u2019all focus on the important stuff and you do not worry about these tiny logistical questions. Shannon, how\u2019s it striking you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:08]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I would love to just make a game plan and roll with it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Would you be willing to give at least some control?<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:14]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. If we got together, made a decision on it and moved forward, I would love that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm. Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:20]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Save a lot of mental energy.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I love hearing that. Can I ask you, why haven\u2019t you done that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:25]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel like I am usually a planner. I like to get ahead of things and make a decision, and I feel like Wilson likes to wait.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:36]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know. Going back to the dog sitting situation of last year, I wanted to book our Christmas trips in May, and Will wasn\u2019t sure what his work schedule was going to be. And eventually, I think in August, I was like, \u201cOkay, I\u2019m going to book mine and you can book yours later.\u201d And I think, Will, you wanted to wait to see if we could rent a house and find a place for Luna. And then in the end, I went home for months and Will ended up staying with Luna because he wanted to optimize for renting the house.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:09]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s not true though. I didn\u2019t have all the information to make that decision that I can go away for a month while I\u2019m CEO of a startup. And it would\u2019ve been great if we were swimming together in this new life that we\u2019re trying to get to with money. And you said \u201cCool. Okay, great. I\u2019ll book my ticket. If it works out or you can come, great. If not, no worries.\u201d That\u2019s the place that I want to get to, but we\u2019re not there yet.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you notice is happening in this example right here?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:40]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m coming to realize I\u2019m also not getting what I need. Why is Shannon\u2019s decision contingent on mine?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Shannon, what do you notice?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:48]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m receiving a bit of defensiveness about how it played out. I don\u2019t remember in the beginning there being conversation around work. I remember the conversation being around, I want to rent both Brooklyn and Upstate so that we can make money on that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What I hear is a lack of agreement on basic facts. What happened? That\u2019s number one. I hear each partner going back into their respective corners, no shared vision. So for example, a shared vision would be, \u201cHey, we have a value that we spend holidays with family, or two times a year relationships come before work.\u201d I didn\u2019t hear that. It was you versus me. And then I heard waiting, this \u201cneed for information.\u201d Wilson, you mentioned this a lot, \u201cI need to get the data.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:43]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. And Shannon, you never mentioned it. I don\u2019t think I\u2019ve heard you say data once. It\u2019s quite starkly different worldviews. One person saying, \u201cLet\u2019s be with family.\u201d The other person\u2019s saying, \u201cI need to wait for data.\u201d And this isn\u2019t just about the holiday trip. It\u2019s about the dog. It\u2019s about a lot of things. So until we come up with a shared way of looking at your finances and candidly your entire relationship, you\u2019ll each always be boxers in opposite corners of the ring. How does that strike you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:22]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0I think it\u2019s 100% on point.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0In your application, Shannon, you wrote, \u201cHe thinks I\u2019m too conservative and frugal, while I think he is a bit of a dreamer and optimizer.\u201d What do you mean by that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:39]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Wilson is an artist, visual, very big picture dreamer. And we joke that I am sometimes the dream crusher or the dose of reality.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, this sounds familiar.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:50]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0He likes to say, it feels like, if we don\u2019t have grounding, that things can get lost.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Aha. And who\u2019s the grounder? That\u2019s you. She\u2019s raising her hand. So in other words, are you saying that, left to his own devices, you see Wilson as the dreamer who would go into the clouds. We can do this and that, and we should do this opportunity and that investment. And your role is to \u201cbring him back to earth.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:20]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t want to be that person that crushes his dreams. But again, coming back to safety and security, what we talked about in the beginning, sometimes I feel like I have to do that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0The typical word that people use is nag. Often the person who\u2019s in that role doesn\u2019t want to be there, and they will say that I don\u2019t want to have to control or check what my partner does, but if I don\u2019t, things will get out of control.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:46]\u00a0Do you see how the dynamic that you\u2019re already in with money is very possible to simply extend to different parts of life? And it actually gets worse? Nobody wants to have to be the dream crusher. So what do you think the solution is to this dreamer-dream crusher dynamic?<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:03]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Maybe it\u2019s sitting down and aligning on what our big picture vision is for things so that it\u2019s shared goal as opposed to, I want this and I want this.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Love that. Totally agree. Wilson, what do you say?<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:16]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0I think acceptance and love and kindness, willing to fail and willing to let things get messy, and having faith.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Would you be willing to accept that you are going to lose a certain amount of rent money because you\u2019re going to let the house empty?<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:33]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You are?<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:34]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:36]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I love that answer.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Have you ever actually had that conversation before?<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:41]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-mm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0No. 11 years married. How come you guys haven\u2019t talked about maybe being willing to accept making a little less from renting whatever property in 11 years?<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:54]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0I didn\u2019t make money for six years building the startup, six years. And it was a lot of stress on Shannon. And I\u2019m very aware, and I regret the harm that I caused her in those years. I do, really? But I think we\u2019ve turned a new chapter and now I\u2019m going to make a lot of money this year. And it\u2019s like going from living below the poverty line to living the top tax bracket. And that\u2019s the reality that we\u2019re stepping into now. The challenge we have is, how do we form a new relationship based on this new reality and shed some of the past?<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s a very common thing couples have when something big changes in their lives. In your case, you went from one end of the socioeconomic spectrum to, sounds like, the other end. Sometimes it\u2019s having kids. Sometimes it\u2019s health change. That recalibration is really hard, but it can be done.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Real quick,\u00a0if you enjoy these videos, you want me to make 200 more episodes,\u00a0make sure you hit the Subscribe button. It helps my team and me grow this show.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m curious, Wilson, you mentioned regretting the harm you caused her. What harm?<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:15]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0When we were building the software, it took much longer than we thought. We thought it was going to be three years. It took six, seven years. And I did have to take on credit card debt and do the whole zero interest shuffle and take one card and pay off the other.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:36]\u00a0And I remember we had that moment in Tobago and I was talking to Citibank or something, trying to get my 18th zero interest credit card to cover one. And Shannon was just like, \u201cThis is insane.\u201d And she was right. It was insane.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s pretty honest. I really appreciate you, Wilson, saying that. Shannon, have you heard that before?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:01]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm. How does it feel when you hear it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:06]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0It feels validating. It also still brings up a lot because it was hard on me and I felt like I had to hold the ship afloat. And we\u2019ve talked a lot about how do we act in the present moment as opposed to based off of precedent. And just trying to recalibrate based on the present moment.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Shannon, what do you remember your family saying about money when you were young?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:35]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0When I was growing up, there was a little bit more of it compared to my siblings, who were older. But there were also times where there was no whole lot of liquid money that my parents had, and we had to make certain sacrifices with things.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. Were you middle class? How would you characterize it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:55]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019d say upper middle.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. \u200aAll right. So your family had wealth in assets like real estate, but less so in terms of just available liquid cash to spend.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:07]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0At certain times, yeah. We never wanted for anything. I guess it was just more certain luxuries that we didn\u2019t have.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. And who worked in your family?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:20]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Both parents worked. My dad worked full-time and my mom worked part-time so that she could be home with the kids.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What was the dynamic between them as it relates to money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:30]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I guess my dad handled bigger things like mortgages and my mom managed day-to-day grocery cash flow, that kind of stuff.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Uh-oh.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:39]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I see where you\u2019re going with this.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm. Okay. That\u2019s interesting. And what feeling did each of them have towards money?\u00a0So\u00a0when it comes to money, mom, what?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:51]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Feels that she doesn\u2019t have enough of it maybe.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Is anyone seeing any connections here?<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:02]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm. Surprise you, or no?<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:06]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0No, it makes sense.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:10]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0\u200aYou absorb what you see.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, that\u2019s pretty interesting. Was your dad risk-seeking?<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:16]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0No. He played it pretty safe. He put his money in some ventures that didn\u2019t always pan out, but it wasn\u2019t like a risky business, so to speak.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wilson, how about you? Take us back to your childhood. What do you remember about your family in terms of what they said about money when you were young?<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:33]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0My mother was like Shannon, tracking all the expenses. My father, definitely more of the dreamer. He was a filmmaker, and then he took a job as a tenured professor when he had kids. So I gave him mad props that he put aside the riskier artist\u2019s life to raise a family. And he took on some riskier real estate investments that did well. But my mom was very against him. My mother does not like risk at all. She runs from risk, whereas my father, I think is a little more risky.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0The similarities I see are quite stark. Dad was more risk-seeking, so are you. Mom was risk averse. Generally speaking, Shannon is as well. It\u2019s pretty obvious.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Isn\u2019t it amazing how much our experiences as children shape who we are decades later? Wilson is willing to take big risks just like his dad. Shannon feels unsafe and insecure about money just like her mom, and they married each other just like their own parents did. It\u2019s quite remarkable when you think about those patterns.\u00a0Shannon is still feeling the effects of Wilson not earning for many years while he was building his business.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:06]\u00a0Now we\u2019re\u00a0going to\u00a0get back to Shannon and Wilson after a quick pause to support our sponsors.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:11]\u00a0Now back to Shannon and Wilson.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How do you get lost in the details when it comes to money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:17]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Wanting to know all the pieces so that I can make a decision.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It seems like when there\u2019s money to be made that\u2019s involved, things slow down a lot.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:27]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0I think because I\u2019ve struggled for so long and had to be conscious of making an extra $2,000 so that I didn\u2019t have a credit card bill or something like that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s right. The invisible script you are using is, I put Shannon through a lot of financial heartache for years, and therefore I need to make as much money as I can\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:55]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0To pay her back.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:56]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh my God, no. This is the running theme. And part of it is to make up for lost time to also make Shannon feel secure, but I do it to such an extent that it harms our connection and our relationship.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Shannon, how does this strike you hearing this?<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:21]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, it makes sense, and we\u2019ve had conversations around that recently. Having lots of money has never been something that\u2019s important to me. It\u2019s more about just, again, being safe and secure. So I would much rather prioritize presence and time together and family vacations over making a little bit extra money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow. Now that is honest. I appreciate both of you. Now I finally think I\u2019m starting to understand what\u2019s going on. This idea of safe and secure is currently inextricably tied up with money, and there\u2019s this idea, I think Wilson, you believe that there\u2019s a linear relationship. The more money we have, the more safe and secure Shannon will feel. Therefore, I need to optimize and get the additional rent.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:13]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:16]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0100%.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And what Shannon is saying in so many words is, yes, I do want to feel safe and secure, but merely making more money won\u2019t do it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:31]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, 100%.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Great. Amazing. Now, now we\u2019re speaking each other\u2019s languages. This is so good. Thank you both for going through the process just to get here. Now we can really start to engage. I\u2019ll tell you what though. What surprises me is about the question that you asked on the application. It\u2019s not about coming together. It\u2019s not about what is the role of family as it relates to money. The question is about Wilson wanting to take out a second mortgage on the house to put more money into stocks. What the hell?<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:12]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0We have 80% equity in our house and a 20% mortgage.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:17]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0So the devil here is in the details. And this isn\u2019t a blanket approach that you can ask ChatGPT or something and say, \u201cShould I take out a second mortgage?\u201d No. You need to know exactly the details.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m going to go out on a limb right now and tell you, I actually don\u2019t think this question is about the ratio of how much equity you have. I am willing to bet. Shannon\u2019s shaking her head no. Shannon?<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:46]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I think it comes down to Wilson wanting to take on more risk and me wanting to feel safe and secure.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Probably. Wherever you go, there you are. The core root issues separating you with money will show up everywhere. They will show up with your jobs. They already have. They\u2019ll show up with your house. Showing up right now. They\u2019ll show up with your dog. It already has.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:12]\u00a0So you\u2019re playing whack-a-mole, and you\u2019ll be doing that for the rest of your life unless you actually tackle the root cause, the way you see money. More importantly, the way you see it together. I want to look at your conscious spending plan. Shall we take a look?<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:27]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Sure.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0\u200aAll right. Let\u2019s see. Wilson, can you read off the word in bold and then the number in full next to it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:36]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Assets, 1.63 million.\u00a0Investments, 305,000.\u00a0Savings,\u00a00.\u00a0Debt, 247,000.\u00a0Net worth, 1.69 million.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Cool. What do y\u2019all think about those numbers?<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:59]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel like between our house and Wilson\u2019s business, if he ever did sell it, we\u2019d be in a good position granted those aren\u2019t liquid and things could change. But at present, it looks pretty good.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0They\u2019re not liquid. Money\u2019s locked up. Does this remind you of anybody?<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:17]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, my parents.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Take a second and think about it. What does it mean?<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:21]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0The fear is that it could go away.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. To me, it means that there are so many times where our views on money, our feelings towards money, our behaviors towards money, were actually shaped 35 years ago. And this is very disconcerting to people, to realize that some of the things that we do were predetermined or at least highly influenced decades ago.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:49]\u00a0You close your eyes and you find yourself in a somewhat similar situation to your family upbringing. Then we look at Wilson. He closes his eyes, he finds himself in quite a similar situation to his family upbringing. If the two of you make no changes, if you continue going on as you\u2019ve done, \u200aall right, you got a net worth of $1.6 million. That\u2019s great. What\u2019s likely to happen with the next generation?<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:10]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, they\u2019ll do the same.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. They\u2019ll do the same thing. If you have a daughter, your daughter will be bill paying, playing small, worrying. If you have a son, it\u2019s likely he\u2019ll be taking on more risks, optimizing, and we just recreate what we saw from our parents and maybe even beyond. So I think there\u2019s an opportunity for a cool change. Wilson, how do you feel about the numbers?<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:34]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel pretty secure.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:37]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Because the business I\u2019m in is growing rapidly. We\u2019re already at this point where we basically own a house outright, and we have a great life, and I feel good.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Why do you sound angry when you say it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:51]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel like I look into the future much deeper than potentially Shannon. Shannon looks at the pluses and minuses of today, whereas I\u2019m stepping and looking ahead. That\u2019s why I\u2019ve always been seeing the vision of where we\u2019re going to be amazing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How would she know that your vision of the future is great and that you are going to make that vision a reality? How would she know?<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:19]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t have the answer for it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Ask her.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:23]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0How would you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:24]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I guess if we talked about it more, but I think also if I saw changes in behavior that would communicate that we\u2019re on that path. Like, okay, we\u2019re not in the position we were two years ago. Let\u2019s start paying down more on the debt. Or let\u2019s maybe not try to optimize renting both places and just go on vacation. I feel like our financial situation has changed and it would be nice if our actions, I guess, reflected that a little bit.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:55]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0I think I\u2019ve carried this baggage of trying to optimize because I\u2019m afraid of not having those $2,000, which would hurt us as a family unit in the past, and I\u2019m carrying that baggage into the future where things have changed.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay,\u00a0now we are getting somewhere. This is a big breakthrough for Wilson, and now we can understand why he feels the need to optimize, to gather information,\u00a0to get the data. This is what I was talking about earlier,\u00a0how people who believe they are data-driven are often the most emotional of all, but they use data as a shield to avoid going deeper.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:39]\u00a0I know because I was that person, and deep down, I still am. I have to fight to connect with my feelings. I suspect that what\u2019s going on here has very little to do with data. More likely it comes from fear, a feeling of scarcity, which makes it easy to hide behind logic because it\u2019s scary when you don\u2019t have enough.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:02]\u00a0And like me, I suspect he\u2019s had a hard time connecting that emotion to his need to optimize. Optimize gives you control. Listen, as I ask him to connect how he feels about this with his partner.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow. This is a powerful moment. Take a second and just really feel how you both feel about each other right now.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:25]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel more connected, which actually takes it back to what we talked about in the very beginning, that if we were on the same page, we would feel more connected to each other.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Agreed. How about you, Wilson?<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:37]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes, I feel definitely much more connected.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That was really cool. There were lots of subtle behaviors and phrases that I noticed that made that very special. Wilson, I noticed you writing something down. And I could see the way you were writing. You\u2019re like, \u201cOh, I need to do this. I need to start changing the way that I optimize everything.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:02]\u00a0I thought that was amazing, and I think that when something like that happens in a relationship, talk about it. Wilson in your case, \u201cHey, I realize I need to not be behaving the same way I did for the last few years \u200abecause I want turn a page.\u201d So that\u2019s awesome. I also think it\u2019s really vulnerable and really cool, Wilson, that you originally said, \u201cI\u2019m a little frustrated. We\u2019ve gone from one end of the socioeconomic spectrum to the other.\u201d And one thing you just realized is you also play a part in that. You\u2019re still optimizing like you were five years ago when that $2,000 made a huge difference.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:42]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I think it\u2019s cool that you acknowledge that. I think it would be even cooler if you talked about that and led with that vulnerability. \u201cHey, I\u2019m looking at these net worth numbers and I\u2019m really proud of how far we\u2019ve come. We went through a lot.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:58]\u00a0\u201cShannon, I know that it was really hard for you, and I know that you want to feel safe about money, and some of the things that I had to do, some of the decisions that I made, I know sometimes they made you feel unsafe. I\u2019m so thankful that you were there and that you are here with me, and I know that we have an amazing future we\u2019re going to build together. But I just wanted to thank you. I just wanted to take a second and acknowledge how much you\u2019ve put in and how we could have only done this together.\u201d That\u2019s the way to connect with your partner. Shannon, how would it feel?<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:35]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0It would feel great, and I think would be helpful to know that there has been a shift as opposed to just operating in the same mode.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. That\u2019s a great conversation to have. Both of you, it\u2019s like, hey, we went through some really tough times together. And now that we have come out the other end, not only is there a light at the end of the tunnel, we are in the light. That\u2019s that feeling.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:00]\u00a0All right. I like seeing the net worth. That\u2019s awesome. As you can tell, the net worth is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 numbers, but the numbers are not the point. It\u2019s everything we just talked about beneath the numbers. That\u2019s the Rich Life. The numbers, yeah, they\u2019re important, but they don\u2019t tell the whole story.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019ll continue our review of Shannon and Wilson\u2019s conscious spending plan after this.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:26]\u00a0Now let\u2019s get back to Shannon and Wilson\u2019s conscious spending plan.[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right.\u00a0Let\u2019s continue through the CSP.\u00a0Okay. Shannon, can you read off the gross combined monthly income?<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:41]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a013,916.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, cool. 13,916. Your annual household income is $167,000 a year. Did you know that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:55]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s more than that. Our tax return is more than that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. So that\u2019s a no. And Shannon, did you know that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:01]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0No, I didn\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, good. 0% of people on this call knew that. \u200aAll right. That\u2019s interesting for a couple that\u2019s, at least one of you\u2019s into the data.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:12]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s continue.\u00a0Fixed costs,\u00a0Shannon, what\u2019s that number there?<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:16]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a076%.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, what do you think about that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:19]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0High.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s high.\u00a0We\u2019ll go through it in a minute, but right now you are way above where most people are. And guess what? This is why at least one of you feels anxious about money,\u00a0right here.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:32]\u00a0This number, 76%,\u00a0that\u2019s the reason why. Let\u2019s keep moving.\u00a0Investments are at 13%. Savings are at 22%. And then guilt free spending is at negative 11%, which is how I know that the numbers on this are not accurate. What the hell? So let me make a guess. You just added 34 long-term emergency fund in the last month, correct?<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:57]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0No, we decided on it two months ago, but I understood that section, that it was the goal, not what we\u2019re doing right now.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What is this, a aspirational CSP? What is this?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:08]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0It said goal, so I didn\u2019t know if it was actually what was savings now. \u200aBecause at the top, if you saw it, you see it says nothing in savings.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, okay, okay. \u200aAll right. That\u2019s clever. We can definitely make changes, no doubt. What do you see on this CSP, Shannon, that explains part of why you feel the way you do about money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:31]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0The monthly debt payments are very high.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You are currently paying $2,241 a month towards debt. I agree. So that makes you feel what?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:41]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Insecure, unsafe. I would like to get that number down by paying off lump sums.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, fine. What else do you see on here?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:50]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel like that would make the biggest dent in the fixed costs.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Right now you\u2019re not actually saving anything towards savings, it\u2019s zero. Correct?<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:00]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You think maybe that has anything to do with how you don\u2019t feel safe around money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:05]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I would love to do an emergency fund.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I would feel unsafe if I lived in Brooklyn, I have relatively high expenses, and I had no emergency fund. What if one of you gets sick or something happens? Somebody gets laid off. That\u2019s risky. All right, I would fix that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:23]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0I agree 100%.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Awesome. Amazing. If you both agree, how come you haven\u2019t put money towards savings?<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:29]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Because we got to refinance the house.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:31]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0We do not have to refinance the house. He wanted to either refinance the mortgage or take out more equity on the house.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What is the relationship between that and having an emergency fund?<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:42]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0This is very simple. I\u2019m going to make it very, very simple.\u00a0When you take $200,000 in cash and you do a giant renovation, it goes into the equity of the house. Most people take a construction loan or something like that, or they just buy a house with 80\/20. We didn\u2019t do that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. This has obviously been a repeated conversation between the two of you, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:05]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you know how I can tell that, Wilson?<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:08]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0No. It\u2019s pretty clear. I definitely have\u2013 I\u2019m sorry. I apologize. I have a tone. Sorry.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. It\u2019s okay. I appreciate it. It\u2019s almost like this topic is really triggering. It\u2019s almost like both of you go into your own corners and let me speak as someone who understands most of personal finance, but I can also put myself in Shannon\u2019s shoes. Watching your energy just now, it\u2019s like, let me make it simple. 80% this.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:40]\u00a0Look at my body language. I am physically retreating. Look at me. I\u2019m back here. I\u2019m feeling attacked and I don\u2019t even understand what the [Bleep] you\u2019re talking about. 80% what? All I know is you\u2019re yelling at me. That\u2019s not connective.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:54]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0No, it\u2019s not.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Again, not pointing fingers here, just sharing the dynamic that I see. So you have $0 in your savings account. That\u2019s a problem. It\u2019s a financial problem. It\u2019s also an emotional problem because one or both of you should feel unsafe about this. We know that you do, Shannon. Wilson, do you feel unsafe about this?<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:16]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Doesn\u2019t bother me that much.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why is that? If something happened, if one of you lost their job, what do you do? You all have a fixed cost every month of $8,842. Where would the money come from?<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:28]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0We would refinance. We would sell stock. We would cut expenses. We don\u2019t spend a ton.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a08,000 bucks a month, like clockwork, where would the money come from?<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:39]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I guess we would have to trim assets or refinance.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, this is a big problem, that the two of you don\u2019t see money the same way, and it\u2019s reflective of this one sell right here. Savings, $0. Now we\u2019re really getting into it because if somebody wants to live their life going like, ah, it\u2019s actually not that big of a deal. If one of us got laid off or something horrible happened, we could do this. We could do that. We could do this.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:06]\u00a0And the other partner\u2019s, like, \u201cI don\u2019t want to get into that situation. I don\u2019t want to have to sell assets.\u201d We got to get on the same page so that we can take that worry away. Shannon, how would it feel if that question was off the table?<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:21]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I would feel a lot more comfortable not having to worry about that. And that\u2019s why I think having the emergency fund would be good, because at least that gives us a buffer. If worst-case scenario happens, at least if we have an emergency fund, we have a buffer and can figure things out.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Okay. Do we all agree that having a larger savings account is important?<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:41]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, cool. Let\u2019s stipulate that. Great. I want to bring this CSP up again because I have another question. So you have your gross monthly income, you have your net monthly income, but then you also have a rental income. Your rental income per month is $3,834. Here\u2019s my question, is that number already included in your net monthly income?<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:05]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0No, it\u2019s on top.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:07]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. So shall we make that change to the CSP \u200abecause that considerably changes things.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:12]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Sure, yeah. I just didn\u2019t know the best way to put it in there. \u200aBecause that\u2019s the pre-tax number, so I wasn\u2019t sure which\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you know the post-tax number?<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:19]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Should we just make it up?<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:22]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Sure.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:23]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Sure.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you\u00a0want to\u00a0say? Who the hell knows? 2,800. Let\u2019s be conservative. What do you think?<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:28]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Sure.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right, let\u2019s take a look here. Okay, well that changes things a lot. So what happened, everybody who\u2019s listening is the fixed cost number just went from 76% to 61%. Okay.\u00a0But let me tell you something else. Let\u2019s keep going down because it\u2019s quite interesting. Your investments are at 10%. Okay.\u00a0Savings are at 18%, which we know is not real, but theoretically it could be.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:52]\u00a0And your guilt-free spending is at 10%, which is better than negative 11%, but is a little low. Now we are starting to understand the true full picture, which is we got to look at our debt in a second. We know that our guilt-free spending is probably inaccurate, but we\u2019re in the universe. \u200aAll right. Let\u2019s keep going.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:14]\u00a0So you\u2019re all investing about $23,000 a year. Did you know that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:19]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0No. I didn\u2019t think about it much. I know that we always try to do the max for our Roth, and I do as much as I can with the 401K based off of the company match.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Part of moving from scarcity to safety and abundance is actually zooming out of playing small and taking full stock. You invest over $20,000 per year. That\u2019s a lot of money. But the fact that you never knew that is just one more clue of why you will forever feel unsafe around money, because you\u2019re not looking at the core numbers that matter. So this is a really important moment.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:04]\u00a0These are big numbers. We are talking about, over the course of your lifetime, millions. We have to be focusing on these things. This is great. $23,000 a year, ballpark. \u200aAll right. Let\u2019s continue looking at this. I understand that your portfolio of investments is in two thirds in real estate and one third in equity stocks and a little bit of crypto. And I believe, Wilson, you feel like that should be swapped. Instead of two thirds in real estate, it should be one third in real estate. Is that correct?<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:40]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Or maybe 50-50. However, what I\u2019ve realized in doing the conscious spending plan is my business is high risk. That\u2019s actually something I\u2019m not really accounting for in this. So I actually have come to the realization that maybe we are exactly where we need to be right now.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, because you have high risk on one end of the barbell, and then you have this real estate property on the other end.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:04]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0More or less, yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Shannon, are you following this conversation?<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:09]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I guess it\u2019s news to me that you see your business is risky.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wilson, you suggested pulling equity out of the house that you own because you have a lot of equity in it, 80% equity, and you want to take the equity out and do what?<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:28]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019d like to create our cushion or safety, $50,000-dollar safety.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:33]<strong>\u00a0<\/strong><strong>Ramit:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>Do you still feel you should take equity out of the house?<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:37]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Definitely for the $50,000 cushion that we want. I think we should, yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. And what would be the method that you would use to extract equity from the house?<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:48]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0We would probably take second mortgage because that\u2019s probably actually better than refinancing \u200abecause we have such a low rate.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you think about that, Shannon?<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:55]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0It still makes me feel a little bit uncomfortable, and Wilson is supposed to get some significant commission checks in the next year, and I would almost rather just take those commission checks, put that into the emergency fund, rather than having to take out more equity on the house.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:15]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Have you two argued, debated, discussed this topic before?<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:21]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, yes. We just come to, I guess, a stopping point.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Stalemate.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:27]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So it\u2019s like Wilson\u2019s like, \u201cWe should do this. We have a lot of equity, 80%.\u201d And then Shannon\u2019s like, \u201cThat feels really risky to me. There\u2019s all these other ways of doing it.\u201d And then you both just end the conversation.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:40]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, so what are you guys going to do?<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:44]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0I think a lot has been flushed out in this podcast. I almost think it\u2019s a take a few days to sleep on it and maybe bring it up in our next huddle about what we learned and what are some of new\u00a0approaches that we could take that would be respectful and make each other feel validated and secure.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let me\u00a0just cut in quickly to explain what I\u2019m seeing here. Wilson is falling back to his fail-safe waiting, being indecisive because he\u2019s uncomfortable right now.\u00a0I don\u2019t\u00a0want to\u00a0let that happen. It\u2019s hard to change, but we have to start right now,\u00a0even with baby steps.\u00a0If I let him do what he\u2019s suggesting, literally sleeping on this decision, coming back with fresh eyes, this same pattern\u2019s\u00a0going to\u00a0continue. I\u2019m not\u00a0going to\u00a0let that happen. Changing this dynamic is hard, but we have to start now.\u00a0Listen, as I challenge him to be decisive.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Sometimes more time is not going to help you make a better decision. This is a very important worldview that I would encourage you to incorporate, which is, my wife and I have talked about this explicitly. One of our core values is being decisive. We are both entrepreneurs. We both run a busy household and businesses, and we have seen people who are stricken by indecision.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:13]\u00a0They can\u2019t make a decision about what vacuum cleaner to buy. Spend two months freaking Googling around. It is a superpower to be able to be decisive and to know when is a decision important and when is it trivial. So if I\u2019m you, Wilson and Shannon, both of them are nodding already \u200abecause you both know where I\u2019m going with this, we have time right now.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:31]\u00a0Let\u2019s make some decisions right now instead of adding more homework for you all to talk about in your next huddle. Let\u2019s look at the debt. The house has $127,000 of debt on it. We have a student loan at $88,000. What\u2019s a tax loan?<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:48]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s a repayment on taxes owed.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why do you have that?<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:53]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0A few years ago, we got a lump sum of money, and Wilson wanted to pay it as a payment plan.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why?<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:01]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0We put in the stock market and it\u2019s gone up 10x, so I guess that was a good decision.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I guess. That\u2019s true. It did work out that way in the end. Y\u2019all got lucky. Stock market\u2019s been on a tear. That\u2019s good. Okay, let\u2019s just finish this off and then I\u2019m going to tell you some observations. Finally, you have a credit card loan. CC loan at $10,000. What is that? Credit card debt?<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:26]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s a loan. You take out a five-year loan at, I think it\u2019s 5 or 5 and a half percent.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0\u200aAll right, so you have $112,000 of debt aside from your mortgage.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:39]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do y\u2019all think about that?<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:42]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I think it\u2019s pretty good.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>How come you say that?<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:44]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0I think for the ratio of what we have in terms of assets and stocks and everything else, and that\u2019s growing, I think we\u2019re doing okay.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0But you said pretty good, with a big smile on your face. Just to be very direct, I would not be okay with having $110,000 of non-mortgage debt. No [Bleep] way. I would be very scared,\u00a0and I know money. Shannon, I\u00a0want to\u00a0check in with you. How are you feeling?<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:14]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I agree that that level of non-mortgage debt makes me feel uncomfortable. And I would love to just get laser focused on paying that off.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What would it mean to you?<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:28]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel like it would be such a weight offer my shoulders. When I went to grad school, I came out with debt, and for me, I just wanted to pay it off as fast as humanly possible. And I did that, and it was such a relief. It\u2019s something that money can\u2019t buy for me personally.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:48]\u00a0And I think I would feel the same way if we were able to pay off that debt and get an emergency fund. I feel like I would just be able to be a little bit more free and maybe less controlling.<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You mentioned a weight on your shoulders. Do you feel like you currently have a weight on your shoulders?<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:08]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. When it comes to money, definitely. It feels heavy. It feels a little bit suffocating. It doesn\u2019t feel like I can make decisions as freely as I would like to, having that hanging over my head.<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Thank you. Wilson, what do you notice about this?<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:24]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0I know it causes Shannon discomfort. We\u2019re different, and I know I need to respect that. And this is part of the trying to come to an understanding of moving forward, right?<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Shannon, I don\u2019t blame you for feeling anxious. I would feel the same way. And what\u2019s worse is that you have this debt, but the two of you have not really settled on what this debt means to you. Let\u2019s find out. Is this debt good or bad?<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:54]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0For me, it\u2019s bad.<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:56]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0The student loan could get paid down a little bit, but I don\u2019t think it\u2019s shockingly bad. And I also think part of it is there hasn\u2019t been a path to pay it down because the income hasn\u2019t been there. Now it\u2019s starting to be there.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you see how the two of you don\u2019t agree on the debt? How can you row to a certain destination when the two of you don\u2019t even agree what the destination is? Can we zoom out of the debt for a second? Can we just talk about your own relationship and how you see money? What is your Rich Life?<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:31]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0I want to have free time to do the things I love, like make art, hike with my wife, go on vacation with my wife, play with my dog more.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. I love the vision. If that\u2019s the case, then things like taking a holiday, you chose not to. That seems to contradict your vision of a Rich Life. How do you reconcile that?<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:52]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Because I have this reality of needing to make more money in order to do that, in order to pay down debt, in order to do all these other things. But I think one thing that\u2019s been unlocked recently, is Shannon not caring about that as much and wanting me to be more present.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s a really good insight. Shannon, can I ask you the same question? What is your Rich Life?<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:17]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I would love to be able to help my parents out financially in their retirement, help my sister out. I would love to be able to go on one nice trip a year, and not have to worry about the cost of a dog sitter. We love to eat well. I would say that that sums it up.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Does your visions work together?<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:38]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I think they do on quite a few stuff. We both want to take a nice trip every year. We both love to eat. We both want to spend quality time with each other and with our families.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. I like that. Since you both have agreement on taking a trip every year, where can I see that on the conscious spending plan?<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:56]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Right now we have not budgeted for it, but if we did start with the $1,000 a month, we could do that this summer.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0There\u2019s no way. You can\u2019t take a vacation before an emergency fund. And also, I don\u2019t see how you take a vacation when you have 110-plus thousand dollars of debt.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:15]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0We did talk about that actually, a week or two ago. Maybe it\u2019s not realistic to do that this year and that maybe we could do something local instead. He saw a Vermont house and that he wanted to just do it because we could rent out our house basically for more money and go somewhere.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I think it\u2019s cool that you guys have potentially two rental properties. But I think it\u2019s complicating things unnecessarily. You really have let the tail wag the dog. It\u2019s like, we have this house, but we should take a second mortgage. And also, we shouldn\u2019t go on this trip because we might not rent it.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:51]\u00a0It\u2019s causing so much havoc when in reality it\u2019s actually not changing the fundamental problem of your finances. You have way too much debt and you have not directed your money appropriately. House or no house, that doesn\u2019t change. And in fact, you\u2019re letting yourselves be distracted by this house. How much energy are you expending on, let\u2019s wait two months to see about the rental market, blah, blah? No, that\u2019s not changing the fact that you don\u2019t have a debt payoff plan.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:18]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0But we do. I pay $850 a month.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t want jokes. I want seriousness. This is a serious issue.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:27]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. So I have a student loan. I\u2019m paying it every month. I haven\u2019t missed one payment<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. What\u2019s the month and year your debt will be paid off?<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:35]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a014 years from now. And the IRS bill would be paid off in a year and a half.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, that\u2019s good. And the credit card loan?<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:43]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Two years.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So two years, 18 months, and 14 years.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:50]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. First of all, let me give it up. I did not think you would know those answers. I am impressed. Very impressive. That\u2019s awesome. 95% of people in debt do not know their debt payoff date. That\u2019s awesome. Now, knowing that you know your debt payoff date, Shannon, what do you think about that?<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:09]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I did not want to be in debt for 14 years.<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a014 years means, Wilson, you will be 60 years old. And Shannon, you\u2019ll be around 50. \u200aAll right, so you don\u2019t want to be in debt. So you\u2019re saying you want to pay towards debt now.<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:22]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0The first thing I would like to do is refinance the student loans because we can refinance to get a lower interest rate. And then I would love to pay off as much as we can a month, and I would love to take some of the commission checks that are supposed to come and just wipe it out.<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What I hear is you hyper fixating on the debt. The debt is important. The debt is bad. I agree. But if you spend your entire life looking at debt, debt, debt, debt, debt, debt, one, you\u2019re never going to feel good about money. And two, you\u2019re actually not even going to take yourself seriously because you\u2019re also talking about going on vacation every year. We need to be realistic. We need to be aggressive about the debt. But we also need to realize that there is more to your Rich Life than only putting all your money towards debt, which is a lie.<\/p>\n<p>[01:10:11]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I agree.<\/p>\n<p>[01:10:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. So you want to make debt a priority. I hear you. I agree. Wilson, I know you\u2019ve been itching to speak up on this. Wilson\u2019s like, finally. This guy is telling her it\u2019s not only about debt.<\/p>\n<p>[01:10:26]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Like I said, I had a realization in doing the plan about our assets. I think it would be nice to refinance. I think it would be nice to take a chunk of a check and pay off some of it.<\/p>\n<p>[01:10:44]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Maybe we even figure out, okay, if we get any bonuses, whether it\u2019s me or you, and some portion of our monthly salaries, and we say, \u201cOkay, this percent is going to go to debt; this percent is going to go to savings; this percent maybe we\u2019ll go to some vacation or not.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[01:11:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s a good idea. How much are we talking about in terms of these commission checks?<\/p>\n<p>[01:11:10]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s hard to say right now, but it\u2019s probably six figures.<\/p>\n<p>[01:11:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Can we safely say 200k?<\/p>\n<p>[01:11:16]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I think that would be a good.<\/p>\n<p>[01:11:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s be conservative. Let\u2019s say 200k. So what are you going to do with 200k? Have you all discussed it?<\/p>\n<p>[01:11:24]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019ve said we\u2019re going to put some in the stock market. We\u2019re going to pay off some of the debt. We\u2019re going to get that 50,000-dollar safe fund. That\u2019s where it\u2019s going to go.<\/p>\n<p>[01:11:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Did you all actually come up with percentages?<\/p>\n<p>[01:11:38]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[01:11:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0No. Just what? Let\u2019s put it off till another day. Huh? You guys. This is what being decisive is about. It\u2019s about not creating more work for yourself. Let\u2019s just pick a number. Break it down by percentage. Knowing\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[01:11:52]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s just do one third, one third, one third. I think that\u2019s the simplest. You like simple, right?<\/p>\n<p>[01:11:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm. Hold on, hold on.<\/p>\n<p>[01:11:57]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0You like simplicity.<\/p>\n<p>[01:11:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hey, Wilson, this is a good opportunity for you guys to learn how to actually have an effective conversation about money. Effective means you\u2019re not all just tossing numbers out first. It\u2019s actually the two of you talking. So we\u2019re going to do this exercise right now. How do you want to show up in this conversation?<\/p>\n<p>[01:12:14]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0I want to be understanding, so I think I would like to ask Shannon what does she think this looks like?<\/p>\n<p>[01:12:20]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I want to show up with an open mind that takes both my and Wilson\u2019s priorities into consideration.<\/p>\n<p>[01:12:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Open mind. I love that. Give me one more. Who\u2019s somebody who\u2019s really confident and good with money?<\/p>\n<p>[01:12:35]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0You.<\/p>\n<p>[01:12:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Use me as an example. That\u2019s fine. How would I show up in a conversation like this?<\/p>\n<p>[01:12:42]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Decisive.<\/p>\n<p>[01:12:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Love that. Keep goin.<\/p>\n<p>[01:12:46]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Assertive.<\/p>\n<p>[01:12:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Keep going.<\/p>\n<p>[01:12:48]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Have a clear vision and be considerate of my partner.<\/p>\n<p>[01:12:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Beautiful. And thank you very much. I appreciate that. Sometimes when we don\u2019t have the words to describe ourselves of how we want to show up, we can think about people we know. Sometimes we can use TV or movie characters. Or if you can\u2019t think of anybody, use me. It\u2019s totally fine.<\/p>\n<p>[01:13:08]\u00a0Both of you close your eyes and internalize how you are going to show up in this amazing opportunity of a conversation. We now get to talk about the amazing opportunity of having an extra 200,000-dollar commission check. Go ahead and have the conversation together.<\/p>\n<p>[01:13:33]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0What if we start with a ratio that\u2019s heavy on the debt and the savings first because we will get the emergency fund.<\/p>\n<p>[01:13:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Pause. Timeout. Hold on. How the [Bleep] do you make a timeout signal? I haven\u2019t done that in 30 years. Whatever, timeout. I feel like you two are already in the weeds and you\u2019re going towards disaster. I feel like the two of you jumped right into logistics, and we\u2019re not talking about, ooh, should we eat at this restaurant or that? Do you guys want to get the squid?<\/p>\n<p>[01:14:06]\u00a0No. You have 200 [Bleep] thousand extra dollars after all the heartache that you\u2019ve gone through, after all these debt that you\u2019ve incurred. Not one person wanted to say, \u201cYou know what? Before we get into what we want to do with this, I just want to take a second and say how much I love you.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[01:14:26]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, we probably need more of that.<\/p>\n<p>[01:14:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes, you do. You might say something like, \u201cI realize that when we talk about money, so much of the time I feel like I don\u2019t bring my best self to our conversations. And I know, when you are at your best, you are funny. You are considerate. You make me a better person by you being a better person.<\/p>\n<p>[01:14:49]\u00a0\u201cBut somehow, we\u2019ve both gotten into a dynamic. I want to change that. We get to talk about something amazing, what we get to do with extra money. I didn\u2019t do this alone. You didn\u2019t do this alone. And now we get to actually decide together where this money goes. I appreciate you sticking with me when things got tough. I love you, and I love that we get to do this together.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[01:15:13]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, you know what? We don\u2019t do that enough. It\u2019s really missing, what you just said big time, I would say. We just talk about the doom and gloom of everything.<\/p>\n<p>[01:15:23]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I think it would just set the tone in the right way so that we\u2019re having a fruitful, enjoyable, productive conversation around money as opposed to being in the weeds.<\/p>\n<p>[01:15:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Shall we try it again?<\/p>\n<p>[01:15:36]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Sure.<\/p>\n<p>[01:15:38]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019ll start. Shannon, this has been an amazing journey, and look what we\u2019ve built. I couldn\u2019t have done it without you. And now we\u2019re stepping into a new year that I think is the beginning of a lot of great years ahead. And first, I love you and thank you for being my partner in this journey. And if you want to take the first 50k and put it to the fund, let\u2019s do it.<\/p>\n<p>[01:16:09]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Thank you for that. I\u2019m so grateful for how we bring something to each other\u2019s lives that we don\u2019t have, and I do think we balance each other in a really special way. And I want to build that life with you where we don\u2019t have to be in the weeds and can focus on the shared vision that we have.<\/p>\n<p>[01:16:29]\u00a0And I also am really grateful that we now have a much more insightful understanding of why we make certain decisions or have certain thoughts about money that I don\u2019t think we had before. And I want to continue to build on that.<\/p>\n<p>[01:16:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0We haven\u2019t gotten to a single number yet, and that\u2019s a good thing. How do you both feel?<\/p>\n<p>[01:16:52]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Great.<\/p>\n<p>[01:16:53]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel relieved, and I also feel very seen.<\/p>\n<p>[01:16:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What an amazing transformation. 10 out of 10. Amazing. These are the ways that we talk about money. In our family, you might say, we always start our money conversations with a compliment because now when the two of you talk about how to split up the pie of $200,000, you\u2019re not moving salt and pepper around the table. You are filled with appreciation. Money isn\u2019t just numbers.<\/p>\n<p>[01:17:29]\u00a0Money is the work you did. Money is your dog, being able to be safe and taking care of. Money is the two of you honoring your families. We get there by having conversations like this. So I\u2019m very proud of watching both of you do that. Give yourselves a round of applause. That was amazing. Do you think that the two of you could have more conversations like that?<\/p>\n<p>[01:17:50]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. And I think also if we genuinely show up with that tone, because I think sometimes we start by saying, we\u2019re going to have this conversation with love and kindness, and it doesn\u2019t necessarily feel genuine always, and so showing up with something that\u2019s more heartfelt just feels like a much better baseline to start with.<\/p>\n<p>[01:18:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I agree. I noticed that the first time we did this, both of you had good words as to how you wanted to show up, but you just jumped right into the numbers. Somebody who\u2019s bold and assertive does not jump right into business because, as you put it, Shannon, they are considerate.<\/p>\n<p>[01:18:31]\u00a0Considerate means stopping, checking in. How are you doing? And then you would get down to whatever the topic is. We have to remember sometimes, even though this is the person you love the most, sometimes we need to just slow it down. Now, you said yes, you can have this type of conversation again. I totally agree. Do you think you could have this type of conversation around more challenging topics, for example, taking a second mortgage?<\/p>\n<p>[01:18:57]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes, I do. I still have fear that we would come to the same end point.<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Agreed. I don\u2019t quite think you yet have the tools to know how to create a shared vision. I think that what happens is you both retreat into your own corners. Here\u2019s my view. Here\u2019s why I think we should do it. And then you hear them out. But you\u2019re really just listening to know when they\u2019re done talking so you can present more of your view and then you both stalemate.<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:26]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It sucks, right? And then you end up doing what is a common thing, which is like, \u200aall right, let\u2019s figure it out next month.<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:35]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, I hate that. I hate that for so many reasons, including\u2013 more time is not going to make us make this decision.<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:43]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So let\u2019s take a different approach. Let\u2019s do the house thing for a second. Let\u2019s talk about it. So let\u2019s assume that y\u2019all have the conversation about this commission check and some of that money goes towards paying off the debt. Can we agree on that?<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:58]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Well, both of you are in agreement. Great. Can we also agree that some amount of that commission check goes to an emergency fund?<\/p>\n<p>[01:20:07]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[01:20:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Agreement on that. Fantastic. So what\u2019s to discuss about the house?<\/p>\n<p>[01:20:14]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Doing this conscious spending plan shined a flashlight on our assets, and despite us having whatever, 700 grand in real estate and stocks, there is the whole company, and that\u2019s a lot higher risk. So maybe this is exactly where we need to be. I think Shannon has the best approach that once the commission check comes in, then we\u2019ll pay off debt.<\/p>\n<p>[01:20:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Cool. Shannon?<\/p>\n<p>[01:20:40]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I love hearing that, and it\u2019s a sigh of relief to hear you say that.<\/p>\n<p>[01:20:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wilson, are you sure? You talked a lot about wanting to take a second mortgage out. No more second mortgage?<\/p>\n<p>[01:20:50]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m trying to be decisive.<\/p>\n<p>[01:20:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Shannon, you\u2019re cool with that?<\/p>\n<p>[01:20:55]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I love that, and I love that we\u2019ll have a recording of that statement.<\/p>\n<p>[01:21:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s a secret benefit of this podcast. It\u2019s all recorded, everybody.<\/p>\n<p>[01:21:06]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0I know. It scares me.<\/p>\n<p>[01:21:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I appreciate that, Wilson. That actually takes a lot. Seeing you demonstrate being decisive is amazing. It is the best way to show Shannon that you are committed to making changes, and that is you simply saying like, \u201cGot it. We talked about it. I heard you. You\u2019re right. Your approach of paying off debt aggressively is good. We don\u2019t need to take a second mortgage.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[01:21:35]\u00a0So let\u2019s do a couple of other things here. I would highly recommend you aggressively prioritize these two main goals. Number one, emergency savings. Number two, debt payoff. One last thing. Can we talk about retirement? Right now you have $305,000 in investments. I understand some of that\u2019s in crypto, etc. For the sake of simplicity, we\u2019ll consider it all low-cost index funds. You\u2019re contributing approximately $23,000 per year in investments. Years to grow, 19. All right. How much do y\u2019all think you\u2019re going to have?<\/p>\n<p>[01:22:14]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0A million bucks.<\/p>\n<p>[01:22:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[01:22:17]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0No, 8 million bucks.<\/p>\n<p>[01:22:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow. Now this is a big range. One partner says 1 million, the other says 8 million. The answer is about $2 million, which means, using relatively conservative assumption of 4% per year, you would have about $81,000 per year of safe income.<\/p>\n<p>[01:22:40]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[01:22:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How does that strike you both?<\/p>\n<p>[01:22:43]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s not a whole lot to live off of, especially if you live in New York.<\/p>\n<p>[01:22:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Agreed. Okay. Wilson?<\/p>\n<p>[01:22:48]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, that\u2019s probably not enough.<\/p>\n<p>[01:22:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I agree that 81,000, even though it already factors inflation in, that\u2019s not a lot of money. If you live in Brooklyn, you probably like a pretty nice life. But right now you\u2019re not on track to have enough for the type of retirement I\u2019m assuming you want. Would you agree?<\/p>\n<p>[01:23:07]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. It doesn\u2019t align with what we said we wanted.<\/p>\n<p>[01:23:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s right. So what changes, if any, would you like to make regarding your investments?<\/p>\n<p>[01:23:17]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0I would love to invest more, but I do want to prioritize debt and savings first. So I think once we get a handle on those two things, I think we could invest significantly more each year.<\/p>\n<p>[01:23:30]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, sounds like a good plan.<\/p>\n<p>[01:23:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How certain are you of these commission checks per year?<\/p>\n<p>[01:23:36]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s a whole new business we\u2019re starting, so it\u2019s new, but our subscription is growing fast too.<\/p>\n<p>[01:23:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Shannon, what about your employment? Would you consider switching employment, getting a raise, starting a side business?<\/p>\n<p>[01:23:53]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0All of the above. I did have my own business before and I have been exploring other side businesses now.<\/p>\n<p>[01:24:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, it\u2019s not clear if you need to get another job. I\u2019m certainly not saying that. But what is clear is that on your current path, you probably won\u2019t have enough for the type of retirement you want.<\/p>\n<p>[01:24:12]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[01:24:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That part is enough. So let\u2019s just quickly lay out all the options \u200abecause there\u2019s a lot. We already talked about, Shannon, you getting a different job, a different industry, a side business. Fine. All those are out on the table. Wilson?<\/p>\n<p>[01:24:27]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0My income\u2019s growing exponentially, so I think we\u2019re on a path to have a lot more than $2 million by the time we retire.<\/p>\n<p>[01:24:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0The way I might phrase that is, I\u2019m on an upward trajectory in terms of my salary and my commissions, and I propose that we take at least 25% and put that directly into index funds.<\/p>\n<p>[01:24:50]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:24:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s cool. So that\u2019s how we go that one extra step. That\u2019s also how, Shannon, you start to feel good, like, okay, now I\u2019m seeing a vision. We have a plan for the debt. Amazing. We have a plan for the emergency fund. Amazing. And a plan for future investing. Yes. Now that\u2019s exciting. And now that you know, even though you haven\u2019t yet seen all of it come to fruition, at least you\u2019ve both have an agreement. You\u2019ve written it down. You can always tweak it later. Now you can start to feel good about money.<\/p>\n<p>[01:25:24]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I can actually see what the game plan would look like opposed to it being this might come soon and we\u2019ll figure it out then kind of thing.<\/p>\n<p>[01:25:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Awesome work. I\u2019m really proud of both of you.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[01:25:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u00a0want to\u00a0thank Shannon and Wilson for a really, really substantive conversation. We made some breakthroughs in areas that I think are\u00a0going to\u00a0have a very positive impact on their relationship and their finances.\u00a0You heard me talk a lot about Wilson\u2019s initial interest in taking a second mortgage. I\u2019m relieved that in a moment of being decisive Wilson decided that wasn\u2019t the right choice for him and Shannon.\u00a0What a moment.<\/p>\n<p>[01:26:04]\u00a0When you\u2019re talking about a second mortgage, it\u2019s important to know that this is a very advanced concept,\u00a0and it\u2019s definitely not a move to make when you have $120,000 in debt.\u00a0That\u2019s crazy. My wish for Shannon and Wilson is for them to fight for simplicity.\u00a0Today, they learned a few tools to be able to do that, and now it\u2019s up to them to decide if they\u2019re\u00a0going to\u00a0keep going with that strategy. Let\u2019s hear from them. They sent follow-up videos.\u00a0Up first,\u00a0Wilson.<\/p>\n<p>[01:26:35]\u00a0<strong>Wilson:<\/strong>\u00a0So the biggest surprise is how impactful this podcast and interview has been in all areas of our relationship,\u00a0in particular, how much time we waste arguing about something insignificant.\u00a0Focusing on three important issues for the year and not getting detracted by some stupid $60 charge, or me wanting to optimize for living situation\u00a0so that I can save 500 bucks at the expense of missing Christmas.<\/p>\n<p>[01:27:07]\u00a0We never celebrate successes. It\u2019s always doom and gloom,\u00a0no matter what it is. So a big takeaway was,\u00a0starting every conversation with a compliment or focusing on the wins and successes.<\/p>\n<p>[01:27:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And now Shannon\u2019s follow-up.<\/p>\n<p>[01:27:22]\u00a0<strong>Shannon:<\/strong>\u00a0My biggest takeaway was Wilson expressing that when we take his business into consideration, he was open to having more investments in real estate. That was a big relief for me.\u00a0I felt very validated in that moment,\u00a0and I also think that had we not done the conscious spending plan, that we wouldn\u2019t have been able to see the bigger picture. So that was really helpful.<\/p>\n<p>[01:27:46]\u00a0In terms of\u00a0biggest takeaways,\u00a0my fears around debt were somewhat validated,\u00a0but also realizing that maybe both\u00a0Wilson\u00a0and I are living a bit too much in the mindset of where we were five years ago. We need to approach money conversations and all conversations from a place of where we are right now. And so just trying to flip that switch in the brain.<\/p>\n<p>[01:28:08]\u00a0Another takeaway was that,\u00a0collectively we\u2019re being a bit too indecisive around things and we\u2019re just wasting a lot of energy by not deciding things.\u00a0In\u00a0terms of specific changes, I really am looking forward to creating a joint vision board or life dream board\u00a0where we can both have a place to dream freely and for me not to get bogged down in the logistics.<\/p>\n<p>[01:28:35]\u00a0I\u2019m also really looking forward to setting aside some time to decide what our values are as a family. So I think if we are able to set those values out\u00a0from the onset, then we don\u2019t get bogged down in the indecisiveness\u00a0and\u00a0not making decisions.<\/p>\n<p>[01:28:51]\u00a0And I think something that will be very helpful for any of these conversations is just to have a lot of compassion, genuine compassion for each other and where we\u2019re coming from before even getting to talk about the money, because we definitely, I think, get a little bit too in the weeds.<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/200-shannon-wilson\/\">Source link <\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>\u00a0 Wilson (46) and Shannon (35) have built a strong financial foundation\u2014owning a vacation rental, maxing out Roth IRAs, and earning solid incomes. But when [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-320004","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.etrafficlane.com\/60dollarmiracle\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/320004","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.etrafficlane.com\/60dollarmiracle\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.etrafficlane.com\/60dollarmiracle\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.etrafficlane.com\/60dollarmiracle\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.etrafficlane.com\/60dollarmiracle\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=320004"}],"version-history":[{"count":2,"href":"https:\/\/www.etrafficlane.com\/60dollarmiracle\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/320004\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":320006,"href":"https:\/\/www.etrafficlane.com\/60dollarmiracle\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/320004\/revisions\/320006"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.etrafficlane.com\/60dollarmiracle\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=320004"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.etrafficlane.com\/60dollarmiracle\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=320004"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.etrafficlane.com\/60dollarmiracle\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=320004"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}